With "theories" like this about human origins it's worth thinking about what need such folk tales fill. That's what this theory is, a folk tale.

For some people this lore is needed because they don't like (human) evolution and neanderthals kind of force us to realize that, yes, humans also evolved just like every other living thing. For others I think it's about some deep impulse to separate everything into in-groups and out-groups.

But, there are no clear borders.

it's really interesting how much pseudoscience springs up around neanderthals...

There was a lot of neanderthal science fiction speculation in the past and I feel like that probably set the seeds for so much of this crazy speculation nowadays (I am currently reading the manga adaptation of the Minerva series from UK scifi books, and it's amazing how much of the fascination with previous species of humans is a common thread).

On the other hand it's a theme ripe for picking and speculation so perhaps that's why it's used by everyone.

@magicalthinking @quinn

Mandrills don't squick me out since they don't seem like little hairy people, they are majestic and goofy in their own way.

The idea of different species of humans is bonkers¹ and I don't know any book² that tackles correctly the wrecking ball that it is to lazy antiracism...

¹ not as "factually false" of course, but as "doesn't fit with the informal consensus about what humanity is"
² except of course Vercors' "Les animaux dénaturés", written at a time where racism wasn't really condemned, and which is consequently a bit ambiguous on that aspect

I am bothered by the phrasing of the Neanderthals as being extinct since all of us are descended from them, just with varying amounts of Neanderthal DNA still present.

(And likewise for the Denisovans and probably a few other early human groups).

@nazokiyoubinbou @michael_w_busch

Can an ostrich run for ten miles?

@nazokiyoubinbou
Chimps win at strength contests.

Humans win at distance running.

Consequence of us having evolved to run around throwing things at stuff.

@michael_w_busch We're not going to beat most animals at running either, but when you pick them specifically, yeah, chimps definitely don't have the legs that we do. But then there are some apes like patas monkeys which apparently are faster than humans. Apparently even gorillas still are going to beat out many of those of us who aren't athletes. (Even assuming they aren't swinging from trees which can go even faster still.)

But then if you look at animals built for running, even if you limit to two legs, most are still going to beat humans. For example, I doubt even the best athletes will beat out the average ostrich.

We're built to use our brains more than our muscles. Which is why it's so ironic that humanity seems not to want to do that very thing these days...

@nazokiyoubinbou @michael_w_busch

I know I keep bringing this up but humans are kind of big as far as animals go. (so are ostriches) are we really THAT physically mid, or even... just not great at all.

I guess throwing things is cool. Not many animals can do that!

*gets smacked in the head by a sharp shooter fish, a trap jaw ant and some kind of hoverfly egg in quick succession.*

@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch

Well, if other people are projecting their philosophical ideals on to this question of neanderthals vs. sapiens sapiens I'll mention my pet notion:

sapiens sapiens could figure out how to live in much larger groups than neanderthals, something, maybe reproductive speed, maybe all those calories, maybe a commitment to living in small groups on vast tracts of land limited neanderthals.

They couldn't get into the 100s, let alone the 1000s

@vanderZwan @michael_w_busch That would explain why neanderthals were so much fewer and swallowed up into our own subspecies so quickly. It would have been a lot harder to truly sustain those requirements.

It's popular to act like neanderthals were dumb because they were "cave men" but, in fact, they were quite intelligent (supposedly they taught our subspecies a lot of ways to make better tools and hunt better.) Of course, people confuse knowledge and intelligence for being the same thing when they aren't. (By that same token, humans 10,000 years from now -- if our species lives that long -- will think we were ignoramuses for not knowing how to create such super simple exotic energy sources as they've been using forever and bending spacetime or something, lol.)

@nazokiyoubinbou @michael_w_busch I've also seen the suggestion that we wouldn't have the fine motor skills in our hands if we were as strong as chimpansees

(Also, while our brains require a lot of calories, apparently Neanderthals managed to evolve both brains and muscle mass to the point of requiring over twice as many calories a day as we do, which worked just fine for a while. Until that became a selection pressure against them. There's a pbs eons episode about it on YT)

@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch

Contemporary humans, even deeply anti-social ones know dozens of people well, and a hundred or two as acquaintances. But even more important I don't *need* to "know" someone to work with them, to ride in their cab, or help them with a math problem, or help them find the Library.

Maybe neanderthals needed to know people to work with them? Then all these little gregarious people show up and they have less and less space.

Just a speculation.

@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch

People do not think enough about the berries and insects part of the diet back then. We know both groups of people were omnivores from their teeth.

Oh and all those shellfish.

I’ve read several books about Neanderthals and their lives, but I don’t recall much about their vocal abilities. They could definitely vocalize but it’s not clear they had language as we think of it now. This lack would limit their abilities to pass on lore and learning. They had tools, and glue, and string, probably fur/skin clothing. But could they teach skills other than by showing?

@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch

@qurlyjoe @nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch

They had to teach each other. They also had awls which means they were punching holes for sewing.

“Kindred: Neanderthal life, love, death, and art”, by Rebecca Wragg Sykes, is excellent.

@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch

@nazokiyoubinbou @vanderZwan @michael_w_busch

I have a notion they could only produce a child every 5 years minimum, like the Modern Bonobo.

A human can become pregnant again just months after delivering a child.