Personally, I don't think natural language programming is desirable.
I think the strictures of formal languages forcing you to think in slightly more narrow and constrained ways drives you toward the understanding to think like the computer.
I think for this reason, something of value was lost when we started moving away from the 8-bit machines era, where your introduction to computing was a bit of BASIC and then having to put your machine's ASM into the interpreter typed out of a magazine.
I learned more about making the computer do a thing from working with PETI's microcontroller than I did in 20 years of casual computing or the 6 years of python I wrote before that.
Of course, for reasons that'll become clear the next time I do a publishing loop, "think like a computer" is figurative. It's not that different from a cook having to learn to think like her oven.
But you have to understand the machine of the machine to safely use the machine. The sweet spot on the spindle speed of your mill. The part of your loom that doesn't work great.
Why the RTC_C peripheral on the newer MSP430s is superior to the RTC-A peripheral...
Because at the end of the way, the sentiment "Execute what I meant, not what I wrote" is still wrong.
You are just moving around the states of transistors and hoping that when they follow your instruction set, they're in the configuration you want at the end.
It's G-Code, except when you fuck it up you get weird bugs instead of crashing your fancy end-mill into the chuck.
@lemgandi We painted symbolic transistors in poisoned sand and made the illusion of their state so complex we imagine little ghosts doing our math for us.
I've always loved the sentiment that you don't really understand something until you can teach it to someone. On the small day-to-day scale, programming is about explaining to the computer, formally and explicitly, even at any level of abstraction, how to do something.
In that sense, programming is ACTUALLY about clearly understanding something, and the details of what computer, what language, etc, is secondary to obtaining that knowledge.
It's an interesting philosophical discussion for sure. As well as my computing background, I also have some experience of discursive psychology. This leads me to agree with your point about natural language programming. Natural language is not, primarily, a way of passing on information. Instead, we use it to take positions on issues to either justify ourselves or use language to blame others. On your other point, do computers think? I don't believe that they do or ever could, while computer architectures are constrained (by definition) to use the computational paradigm to obtain their results. (I've used this position to explain why current computer architectures could never truly be described as artificial intelligences, for example).
tangentially related – @kevlin had a recent discussion about this - programming languages are about precision and reducing ambiguity - natural languages are about flexibility and adaptability and playing with the ambiguity - programming with a natural language means introducing ambiguity in areas where you really don’t want ambiguity
Software engineering experts Kevlin Henney and Dave Farley explore one of the most pressing questions in tech today: What is the future of programming langua...
@cerement @kevlin imho Programming Languages *are* *not* languages; they're quasi-mathematical notations for specifying algorithms, and not primarily a means of communication between humans. (Though perhaps they ought to be?) It's just an accident of history that they were called "languages".
I also had the joy of building actual half-adders from separate components as part of my BSc course back in the 80s.
And writing the boot code for a PDP-11 to be keyed in *by hand* to drive the paper-tape reader, to load the necessary OS components to boot the rest of the system.
It gives you a very real understanding of what we're actually doing with these damn things.
(I always wanted to code, from age 11 over 50 years ago, and always have even when I had other jobs.)
Every technical field has a precise language and jargon for a reason.
Even if you start off a project in vague conversation / thought, you wind up getting down to very specific detail that doesn't map well to natural language at all.
It's not just programming. Imagine "natural language maths" or "natural language bridge design" at a serious level.
You wind up just speaking the precise words that you'd be using anyhow.
@soatok It’s the same reason that you first learn to do math without using a calculator. Having that basic context is essential to a well-rounded understanding of anything
while definitely great from a learner's perspective, I think having to do real-world projects in near-metal languages might exceed the complexity-managing capacity of human brains
Latvijas austrumu rajonos šonakt turpinās veidoties lietus mākoņi, kas atnesis ļoti stipras lietusgāzes, mākoņiem vairākkārt šķērsojot vienu un to pašu
alojapan.com/1333725/man-order… Man ordered to pay $512,000 in damages to singer he stabbed near Tokyo concert venue #Crime&Accidents #Japan #LatestArticles #TheMainichi #Tokyo #TokyoTopics #東京 #東京都13; 13; 13; 13; 13; 13; 13; 13; The Tokyo District Court is seen in the capital’s Chiyoda Ward. (Mainichi) 13; 13; TOKYO — The Tokyo District Court on July 28 ordered a man to pay some 76 million yen (approx. $512,000) in compensation to a singer he stabb
Was talking to my adult kid, who was sitting at the dining room table, while I had my back turned cleaning the sink. Things were going fine when I asked, "When you're done eating and dressed, can you empty the dishwasher?" And I didn't get an answer... I turn around an my kid's not there, empty breakfast plate still on the table.
(Don't ask me why they're in a bathrobe and having breakfast at 3pm. I have no control over that. Gave up years ago.)
Now that's worth a h/t from me! Thanks for the memory Chris. p.s. The 'independent' free press of Pembroke aka 'The Pembroke Papers' now 9 issues old. £2.00 a pop. = break even. Class!
I've been waiting for that move. It's his only way out if there's something incriminating in there (Unfortunately, the cult followers are going to believe him, no?)
Oh course there is, this is why he taking up the Virginia G story and that she was a Mar A Lago employee before Epstein stole her. He’s framing everything he needs to before he releases any more documentation.
The Narcissist's Prayer ---------------------------------------- That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
It's the classic Three Step TFG Defense: 1) There is no evidence. 2) The evidence is all lies. (created by Democrats, oc) 3*) The irrefutable evidence is irrelevant; because no one cares about that crime, & it's not even really a crime anyway.
So Pimp 1 got upset with Pimp 2 for stealing his underage property. That’s how I hear his Trumpsplation.
We hated that he hired in competent DOJ and FBI heads, but in hindsight it worked out great for us. They botched his entire cover up and spelled out his involvement.
Apr 29, 1999, NATO bombs tore thru 2 def-min bldgs in Belgrade. The targets were chosen more for symbolic reasons than op ones: US-led coa: wanted to send the C’s authoritarian govt, at that time engaged in a brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, a msg: HR weren’t just words -backed by weapons.
Today, Vučić is Serbia’s pres—an apologist for RU -attacks the press +accused of nurturing close ties to org crime.
Vivek, I knew you when you lived in NYC, before you went all MAGA. We sat down to coffee and then a follow up six years ago, and you actually seemed normal, even thoughtful. But like your fellow Ohioan JD Vance, you’re now putting on an act for MAGA cred. It’s tiresome and transparent. It’s really weird and sad how you shifted, just like Vance did.
and it's always so blatantly obvious with these peoples grifting of the right. everyone, except people on the right, can see it as clear as day. Just look at Jordan Petersen or Joe Rogan or new found "poltical streamers" that just so happen to cater to the right.
There's money to be made off those people, and they will exploit them for all they're worth.
Houston Rockets Roster for NBA season 2025-2026 | Rockets Line up 2025 | Kevin Durant Trade Kevin Durant, 36 years old, power forward, 17 years in NBA,
Internet critics laid into President Donald Trump's comments Tuesday afternoon after he accused Jeffrey Epstein of poaching young women from his Mar-a-Lago beach club spa.
By refusing to play by the European Union’s restrictive climate rules, Poland has begun to build one of Europe’s most energy-secure economies. While much of
alojapan.com/1333723/mr-motoch… Mr. Motochika Yamashina speaks in Kyoto about “The traditions of court culture and their inheritance: The 1st Imon – Court Costumes” #Kyoto #KyotoTopics #京都 #京都府 After the meal, you will be able to observe the costumes being worn in the second floor hall, where Mr. Yamashina will explain the style of clothing, and you will hear about Kyoto’s imperial court culture, city, and people’s lives that span over a thousand years.
alojapan.com/1333721/naomi-osa… Naomi Osaka Gives Iga Swiatek’s Ex-Coach a Trial in Montreal #news #Osaka #OsakaNews #大阪 #大阪府 It did not take Naomi Osaka long to find a new coach (at least on a temporary basis) after firing Patrick Mouratoglou. Less than a day after letting Mouratoglou go, Osaka called up Tomasz Wiktorowski. Of course, Wiktorowski is Iga Swiatek’s former coach. Swiatek fired Wiktorowski last October, hiring Osaka’s former coach, Wim Fissette. Osaka
Gather ’round, children, while we read the amazing motion that President Donald Trump filed in his suit against The Wall Street Journal over their story about Trump’s coziness with convicted ...
One of Slovakia’s most economically fragile regions is set to receive a rare injection of industrial investment, as Finnish manufacturer MSK Group prepares to
“You shouldn't have to be a Republican or a Democrat to care about making sure there's transparency on something as horrific as the abuses that happened,” Pete Buttigieg said.
Patch Arcana
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •Of course, for reasons that'll become clear the next time I do a publishing loop, "think like a computer" is figurative. It's not that different from a cook having to learn to think like her oven.
But you have to understand the machine of the machine to safely use the machine. The sweet spot on the spindle speed of your mill. The part of your loom that doesn't work great.
Why the RTC_C peripheral on the newer MSP430s is superior to the RTC-A peripheral...
Patch Arcana
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •Because at the end of the way, the sentiment "Execute what I meant, not what I wrote" is still wrong.
You are just moving around the states of transistors and hoping that when they follow your instruction set, they're in the configuration you want at the end.
It's G-Code, except when you fuck it up you get weird bugs instead of crashing your fancy end-mill into the chuck.
lemgandi
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •Patch Arcana
in reply to lemgandi • • •maybenot
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •@lemgandi
day ending in y, someone on fedi just authored the endorsement blurb they're going to print (scribe?) on the back of the Orange Bible
Jeremy Nickurak
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •I've always loved the sentiment that you don't really understand something until you can teach it to someone. On the small day-to-day scale, programming is about explaining to the computer, formally and explicitly, even at any level of abstraction, how to do something.
In that sense, programming is ACTUALLY about clearly understanding something, and the details of what computer, what language, etc, is secondary to obtaining that knowledge.
felix (grayscale) 🐺
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •Tim Holyoake
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •cerement
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •tangentially related – @kevlin had a recent discussion about this
- programming languages are about precision and reducing ambiguity
- natural languages are about flexibility and adaptability and playing with the ambiguity
- programming with a natural language means introducing ambiguity in areas where you really don’t want ambiguity
youtube.com/watch?v=MUol_5xvFT…
What Is The Future Of Programming Languages?
YouTubeMike Morris
in reply to cerement • • •imho Programming Languages *are* *not* languages; they're quasi-mathematical notations for specifying algorithms, and not primarily a means of communication between humans. (Though perhaps they ought to be?) It's just an accident of history that they were called "languages".
adaddinsane (Steve Turnbull)
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •I agree.
I also had the joy of building actual half-adders from separate components as part of my BSc course back in the 80s.
And writing the boot code for a PDP-11 to be keyed in *by hand* to drive the paper-tape reader, to load the necessary OS components to boot the rest of the system.
It gives you a very real understanding of what we're actually doing with these damn things.
(I always wanted to code, from age 11 over 50 years ago, and always have even when I had other jobs.)
Duncan Bayne
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •Every technical field has a precise language and jargon for a reason.
Even if you start off a project in vague conversation / thought, you wind up getting down to very specific detail that doesn't map well to natural language at all.
It's not just programming. Imagine "natural language maths" or "natural language bridge design" at a serious level.
You wind up just speaking the precise words that you'd be using anyhow.
Phillip
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •punIssuer
in reply to Patch Arcana • • •