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After about twelve hours, the same post had received more than 300 shares and likes on Mastodon, while it had only been shared three times and liked four times on BlueSky.
I'm no social media expert, but it's amazing how reluctant people are to use Mastodon because of its lack of reach and interaction.
If we bring more people here, the Fediverse could become the de facto public square.
mastodon.social/@leavex/116127…
This entry was edited (6 days ago)
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Lord Tom Klopf of CZ
in reply to everton137 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Lord Tom Klopf of CZ • • •i'ts not possible for me to disagree with you more
essentially what you are doing is surrendering the mass of society to plutocrat manipulation and control
of course we don't want bigots here. and moderation will nuke them
but otherwise we want as many people as possible on mastodon
and frankly, if you disagree, you are foolish
are you really happy with the great mass of your society under the algorithmic control of musk and zuckerberg?
Carine Missiaen
in reply to everton137 • • •shadowwwind
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •Ignore global timeline. Follow some hashtags you like, one popular on is #Caturday
Edelruth, PBS Passport Holder
in reply to shadowwwind • • •And #silentsunday for your mental health breaks.
Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •@CarineMissiaen welcome Carine!
Quick question: what are you using to browse Mastodon? Which OS are you on?
For desktop computers I would recommend Phanpy.social (its Catch Up feature is the best of any web client across all social media IMHO).
On iOS I use @ivory - who used the make the excellent Tweetbot and the experience is similar.
Feel free to reach out if you need any help!
@everton137
Carine Missiaen
in reply to Elena Rossini ⁂ • • •I'm still using Google. I am used to it. Ant my laptop has Windows. Seldom using a celphone. Only when I don't have a pc in reach.
Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •everton137
in reply to Elena Rossini ⁂ • • •Klappspatack
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •@CarineMissiaen Howdy 👋. Here is "Mastodon in 180 seconds". Very good to understand what is different here. And it gives a good guide how to start 👍
tilvids.com/w/wx2iLhD3pTipbKFJ…
wx2iLhD3pTipbKFJKLyx5t
tilvids.comJames Wells
in reply to Klappspatack • • •I want to reiterate a point they make in that video, your timeline is what *YOU* make of it. People here don't care about your followers count and they don't care about your post count.
Start by following hashtags, then as you find people whose commentary interests you, follow them and some of their hashtags, rinse and repeat... Follow who and what you want as your timeline is what you make of it.
Luca Sironi
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •@CarineMissiaen
hello Carine,
at first sight, you seem to have got fediverse perfectly right, you are here, speaking with people from different instances.
What you consider less intuitive ?
If I can give just a suggestion, without an algorithmic feed bringing you pre cooked content, you have to try to follow much more people, hashtag, lemmy forum compared to what you were used to in the ruined social
Carine Missiaen
in reply to Luca Sironi • • •I will have to learn it. It took me years to understand the FB tricks. But most people from the Belgian shepherd dog community, I know from FB. And sometimes we met in real and said "oh, is that you?"
Probably they have not been criticizing the T-Rump administration and they put more pictures of themwelves (I very seldom do, I don't like my pictures).
everton137
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •@CarineMissiaen @luca but you like dogs, like I do, and I often post her photos on my Pixelfed @everton137@pixelfed.social 🙂
By the way, I think you are going great! There are people interacting with you, and you joined a conversation.
Actually, I couldn't expect my post to generate so many replies.
P. S. A link with just the photos of my furry friend on my Pixelfed. I noticed I haven't shared photos of her recently.
pixelfed.social/c/690292556025…
AlsoPaisleyCat 🇨🇦
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •@CarineMissiaen
The unofficial @FediTips can be very helpful in explaining the quirks of the various APIs in the fediverse.
@luca @everton137
Fedi.Tips
in reply to AlsoPaisleyCat 🇨🇦 • • •@AlsoPaisleyCat @CarineMissiaen @luca
Carine, if you want any help with using this place please feel free to ask!
Also, there is lots of help on the website at fedi.tips 🙂
Fedi.Tips – An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
fedi.tipsJames Wells
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •Carine Missiaen
in reply to James Wells • • •Those "destructions" are great 😁
What I need is rather a "hashtags for dummies" (for me it still is a symbol meaning number or quantity). I choose for the Belgian site, living in Belgium. Seems not to be the best site to meet people. But I get quite a bit of world news, which is also usefull. I will have to find out where I can find people with similar interests.
Fedi.Tips
in reply to Carine Missiaen • • •@CarineMissiaen @nikatjef
I've done a beginner's guide to hashtags here: fedi.tips/what-are-hashtags-ho…
If you're wanting to discover accounts to follow, I did a guide about it at fedi.tips/how-do-i-find-accoun…
If you want to make your own account easy for people to discover, there's a guide at fedi.tips/how-do-i-get-more-fo…
What are Hashtags? How do I use them on Mastodon and the Fediverse? | Fedi.Tips – An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse
FediTips (Fedi.Tips - An Unofficial Guide to Mastodon and the Fediverse)IO
in reply to everton137 • • •Phoenix Paulina Schmid
in reply to IO • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to IO • • •@engel
yes
because you are also saying then that you are happy with the great mass of your society under the algorithmic control of musk and zuckerberg
are you really happy with that idea?
Stuck Here
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @engel
From what I see the Fediverse is what you want to make of it. You curate your own time line, letting some in and others out. I don't see why you can't keep the Fediverse the way you like it as long as you're willing to stay vigilant and/or switch instances when it's necessary.
It can remain a small neighborhood for you while others discover it.
Am I wrong on this point?
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Stuck Here • • •not only are you not wrong, you reveal the idiocy of this "i don't want the fediverse to grow" foolishness
as you say, you simply make of the fediverse what you want. it's size elsewhere or not on some other servers has zero bearing on your experience
so people who "want to keep the fediverse small" are doing nothing but stating an absurdity at best. they aren't engaged coherently
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
xinit ☕ / 🗑🔥
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce
It can easily stay small. If someone joins a small instance and only looks at the feed of people they follow, voila - small Fedi.
@MyWoolyMastadon @engel @everton137
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to xinit ☕ / 🗑🔥 • • •@xinit @MyWoolyMastadon @engel
exactly
the whole topic is a nontopic
plan-A (ﾟヮﾟ)
in reply to xinit ☕ / 🗑🔥 • •Richard W. Woodley ELBOWS UP 🇨🇦🌹🚴♂️📷 🗺️
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •It's like saying I want an email service that only my friends can use to only email other people that are my friends.
John Mierau
in reply to Stuck Here • • •@MyWoolyMastadon @benroyce @engel
I don't think you're wrong: like life, the fediverse gives you back what you put into it.
Follow nobody, get nothing.
Spend a little time building you follow lists?
Value and fun ensue.
Oblomov
in reply to John Mierau • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @john @MyWoolyMastadon @engel
i would disagree in that what you say is true for something like twitter
but on the fediverse you have controls over who gets to see what
you may say "i just want to post and not worry about followers only" but then you lose the ability to complain about a post "escaping containment"
public is public
nothing in the world gives you the protection of privacy when *you* chose to go public
it's your due diligence to scope what you say up front
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
Stuck Here
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Reminds me of the 90s when a big tech firm, IBM maybe, revealed a secure PC system. They claimed that the information on it was inaccessible by anyone but the user. Then a reporter began to take photos of the information on the monitor. The pool of reporters had a good laugh at the unveiling.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Stuck Here • • •@MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
yeah there are these odd voices i hear sometimes on the topic of privacy saying arguments that can be distilled down to "i want to post in public, but i don't want anyone i don't like to see my posts"
so privacy defilements must be fought
but there is nothing, nothing in the world, in the most privacy respecting technological system possibly devised by humanity, that can protect you if *you* choose to say something in public
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
Dopes The Frogman
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Dopes The Frogman • • •well there is a difference between something like mastodon, where what is public, is public (and always will be)
but in the back there's no slurping your DMs, and linking your private sign up info to your larger identity elsewhere in life, etc
that matters
and there's privacy controls, on what you post, instead of "post it for everyone or fuck you"
there's improvements to be made of course
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
Samuel Smith
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Samuel Smith • • •yeah i don't want to imply mastodon is perfect at all
there's lots of areas for improvement, and for good ideas like yours, to take hold
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •why are you speaking of mastodon specifically?, I wonder. since it's all interconnected with various other Fediverse servers, any privacy guarantees necessarily depend on what other servers guarantee as well.
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •zero argument
the solution to that as far as i see is a server pact that specifically excludes those servers running software that does not respect a baseline of privacy safeguards that we all agree are mandatory
i mean: truth social is mastodon software
we can't do anything about disrespectful servers except wall them off
we ideally look for technical solutions
but sometimes the only solution is a social choice
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 reshared this.
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I'm not speaking of disrespectful or deviant servers, just pointing out that there may be diversity in the Fediverse, and it's offensive to me to make it all a mastodon-centered thing. I've been burned by mastodon's jerk moves before. Fediverse shouldn't bow to mastodon. mastodon doesn't make the rules. there's a standard that we all adhere to (except where mastodon doesn't)
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
apologies but i really don't care if you dislike mastodon
mastodon is just mastodon, the good and the bad, i recognize both
the real topic here is a baseline of respect for privacy between servers
right?
could be running any software
the question of mastodon or not is immaterial to the essential topic here
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •it's not about mastodon, it's about the Fediverse. mastodon is just one of many servers that make it up.
when you speak of mastodon as if it was the Fediverse, you mislead people who might mistake them for the same thing.
when you speak of privacy features, you mislead people into believing only mastodon's features matter.
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •that's fair
the fediverse is not mastodon
and i am using "mastodon" as shorthand for the fediverse
that is an error on my part
i accept your criticism, and i stand corrected
thank you
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •that's a weird kind of shorthand, that isn't actually shorter 😉
not that I haven't seen such things before. some people claim Linux is a shorthand for GNU 🙂
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •no you completely got me. my "shorthand" is a straight error, i admit it. mea culpa. and thank you for the correction. sincerely
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •furthermore, we should stop conflating protocols and programs. that's been a disservice that has made exploitation easier even when back when people had choices but just didn't realize they existed. we should value and cherish the fact that there's an underlying protocol that many different programs can interoperate with. we don't want mastodon (or anyone) to be another microsoft, another google, any other entity that gains power over people by dictating under what terms they can communicate with others, and that can enshittify services to its own advantage whenever it sees fit. that's harder for mastodon to do because it's free software, but the centralization of power that mislabeling it all as mastodon sets things up for such bad outcomes. please don't do that.
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
the discussion is about respecting a baseline of privacy, and i made the error of conflating the fediverse with mastodon, and i admit it
but what you're talking about now about monopolies is bullshit
even if it was a software/ protocol monoculture, server A does not control server B, and vice versa
and you are wrong: you DO want to impose standards
not from a centralized authority, but via servers cooperating
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •the problem of this sort of monoculture is not about one server controlling another, but of the software provider that dominates the network to have control over servers and users
when mastodon unilaterally broke compatibility with the protocol with which the Fediverse was born, to cut GNU social off before it caught up with ActivityPub, mastodon servers that upgraded stopped being able to talk to GNU social survivors
GNU social users had already endured the transition of identi.ca, then the central node of the Fediverse, from the Status.Net protocol to pump.io.
both moves created very significant disruption in the Fediverse, and broke connections between servers and, more importantly, between people.
both of them followed from centralization of power, in one case around a server instance, in another case around server software. both have been traumatic, but also value lessons to learn about things to avoid in a decent(ralized) network.
but I wouldn't say that I wish to impose standards. I'd be happy with voluntary adhesion. I welcome diversity, inclu
... Show more...the problem of this sort of monoculture is not about one server controlling another, but of the software provider that dominates the network to have control over servers and users
when mastodon unilaterally broke compatibility with the protocol with which the Fediverse was born, to cut GNU social off before it caught up with ActivityPub, mastodon servers that upgraded stopped being able to talk to GNU social survivors
GNU social users had already endured the transition of identi.ca, then the central node of the Fediverse, from the Status.Net protocol to pump.io.
both moves created very significant disruption in the Fediverse, and broke connections between servers and, more importantly, between people.
both of them followed from centralization of power, in one case around a server instance, in another case around server software. both have been traumatic, but also value lessons to learn about things to avoid in a decent(ralized) network.
but I wouldn't say that I wish to impose standards. I'd be happy with voluntary adhesion. I welcome diversity, including the bridges and the other incompatible protocols that make up the broad Fediverse. but I disapprove of jerk, anti-competitive and anti-interoperation moves that sabotaged and cut off significant chunks of the Fediverse. may that be a lesson that we learn, remember, and don't forget, so that it doesn't happen again.
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
"but of the software provider that dominates the network to have control over servers and users"
why does mastodon.social have to write it. it's open source. anyone can. someone should have
"but I wouldn't say that I wish to impose standards"
you are though: complete compatibility is your demand
"I welcome diversity"
i don't if it means truth social
i welcome collaboration. there's no centralization in that
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I'll respond to your post from bottom to top
why the heck are you worrying about truth.social, that actually runs mastodon code but that was intentionally configured to not be interoperable and non-diverse, when you're talking to someone who uses a non-mastodon instance that actually increases server software diversity in the Fediverse?
I ask for interoperability as opposed to jerky rug-pulling. complete compatibility is not generally attainable even across different versions of the same program, and if you think I'm demanding that, we've miscommunicated.
what's with mastodon.social? I'm talking about the mastodon server software, not about the mastodon.social instance. that their server software gets installed by operators all over the Fediverse without much thought gives those who write the software a lot of power, arguably too much power. that they also control the largest instance, that you happened to mention by name, gives them further power, but not even close to as much as the fact that others just take their updates, even when they pull the rug from unde
... Show more...I'll respond to your post from bottom to top
why the heck are you worrying about truth.social, that actually runs mastodon code but that was intentionally configured to not be interoperable and non-diverse, when you're talking to someone who uses a non-mastodon instance that actually increases server software diversity in the Fediverse?
I ask for interoperability as opposed to jerky rug-pulling. complete compatibility is not generally attainable even across different versions of the same program, and if you think I'm demanding that, we've miscommunicated.
what's with mastodon.social? I'm talking about the mastodon server software, not about the mastodon.social instance. that their server software gets installed by operators all over the Fediverse without much thought gives those who write the software a lot of power, arguably too much power. that they also control the largest instance, that you happened to mention by name, gives them further power, but not even close to as much as the fact that others just take their updates, even when they pull the rug from under large chunks of the Fediverse. that concentration of power, and their time-and-again shown limited regard for interoperability, are not healthy for the Fediverse.
now, I don't get what you meant by "have to write it". what's the "it" that mastodon.social has to write?!?
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
i say truth social not meaning literally truth social. i mean any maliciously inclined server, like "freeze peach" bigot ones
interoperability is the responsibility of parties interested in that. since it's open source, someone should write that. if mastodon software doesn't have something you demand, then write it. depending upon mastodon is your error, it is not mastodon's error for not satisfying your demand
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •and if it removes something that interoperability depends on?
and if it introduces incompatible features that break interoperability?
if they decide they don't wish to collaborate or cooperate, like they have in the past, is it my fault that they decided to make jerk moves?
why should I even bother to send merge requests that revert the removals or the incompatible features, if they've already made it clear they don't want them?
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
So fork it
If the demand is there, your fork will be the new standard
Regardless, even if it doesn't become the new standard, anyone who wants what you also want can use your fork
You can't be disappointed because you're assuming a relationship that does not exist
Of course you *can* be "disappointed" but it carries no weight
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •that's like saying we should fork threads or instagram or facebook. it wouldn't solve the interoperability problem that arises from intentional incompatibility from someone who has too much power and is willing to abuse it.
forking might give some choice to some instance operators, but it won't help the users who end up hurt in the cross fire of the jerk move, whether because they use an instance whose operator goes along with the jerk moves, or because they wanted to communicate with someone who does.
we have some safeguards because the software is free, and also because users can move.
but interoperability is not something that should be taken as lightly as mastodon has, and that it has because it could, because it was already big to care, big enough to start behaving like microsoft who figured they could reject ODF and force OOXML even while not being compatible with it; like google and facebook who interoperated through XMPP and then broke compatibility to make walled gardens.
if mastodon decides it wants to change the way users can move between instanc
... Show more...that's like saying we should fork threads or instagram or facebook. it wouldn't solve the interoperability problem that arises from intentional incompatibility from someone who has too much power and is willing to abuse it.
forking might give some choice to some instance operators, but it won't help the users who end up hurt in the cross fire of the jerk move, whether because they use an instance whose operator goes along with the jerk moves, or because they wanted to communicate with someone who does.
we have some safeguards because the software is free, and also because users can move.
but interoperability is not something that should be taken as lightly as mastodon has, and that it has because it could, because it was already big to care, big enough to start behaving like microsoft who figured they could reject ODF and force OOXML even while not being compatible with it; like google and facebook who interoperated through XMPP and then broke compatibility to make walled gardens.
if mastodon decides it wants to change the way users can move between instances, it could make it so that users could no longer move to instances that don't implement those changes, locking users in if/until other servers implemented compatible incompatibilities. that's the microsoft way, and it follows from having too much power. that power should be kept in check, not encouraged or defended.
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •i won't, and can't, argue with you about the history of a topic i know nothing about
but i do know that mastodon has plenty of interop with other software projects. do those other projects have the interop you desire? if yes, then mastodon sucks. if no, maybe there's a technical reason
did these older projects you allude to keep up to date with reasonable standards?
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •mastodon has introduced deviations from the standards, and others have been pretty much forced to adopt the deviations to be able to interoperate with users of the this big bully
the older project I alluded to was catching up, perhaps more slowly than ideal, and then mastodon spit on the plate it ate from since inception, and pulled the plug to kill the healthy interoperation
I'm not telling you this for you to hate mastodon, but to illustrate what can happen when too much power accumulates even in a free software project, to keep such powers in check and to stop promoting mastodon (instead of the Fediverse as a whole) as if getting mastodon further power were a good thing
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •But if these breaking changes were improvements, and the older projects were going slower at it, why haven't they caught up? Did they stop trying? What I am saying is should everyone be help hostage by the slowest project? It's not like we're in a monoculture. Plenty of projects have interop with mastodon
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •breaking interoperability is not an improvement. whether it's adding a feature in an incompatible way, or dropping an entire protocol, it hampers communication. how can one possibly frame the dropping of an entire protocol as an improvement? the Fediverse has multiple protocols, keeping compatibility with them is not a problem, dropping it is. it's not like any one of them is superior to the other, they're just different, and extend the reach of the Fediverse. Friendica and GNU social are not dropping protocols as they gain support for other protocols. diversity is good. if mastodon weren't the dominant player, these jerk moves would be losing it ground because it would be less able to interoperate. it's abusing its power.
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •"how can one possibly frame the dropping of an entire protocol as an improvement?"
if it is flawed
we drop protocols all the time with better protocols
"it's not like any one of them is superior to the other, they're just different"
i can't comprehend this argument. it is very true protocols have different capabilities, and some are objectively better than others
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •we're not talking about a single line of evolution of protocols, it's about entirely different protocols.
think SMTP (email) and XMPP (instant messaging). one doesn't replace the other.
think IMAP and POP. both serve roughly the same purpose, except IMAP offers a lot more possibilities, but discontinuing either one serves no purpose but prevent communication with servers that support one but not the other.
discontinuing support for Diaspora* or Status.Net or ActivityPub wouldn't make Friendica or Hubzilla better, it would just prevent communication.
imagine if Mastodon implemented AtProto (BlueSky) and then dropped ActivityPub. the former would increase interoperability, but the latter wouldn't make Mastodon better, it would just break compatibility with other ActivityPub implementations. it would fragment the Fediverse. that's what Mastodon did when it dropped Status.Net. it didn't make ActivityPub or Mastodon better, it just burned bridges. it kicked the ladder after climbing it. it's indefensible.
you can try by making up and pulling absurd, basele
... Show more...we're not talking about a single line of evolution of protocols, it's about entirely different protocols.
think SMTP (email) and XMPP (instant messaging). one doesn't replace the other.
think IMAP and POP. both serve roughly the same purpose, except IMAP offers a lot more possibilities, but discontinuing either one serves no purpose but prevent communication with servers that support one but not the other.
discontinuing support for Diaspora* or Status.Net or ActivityPub wouldn't make Friendica or Hubzilla better, it would just prevent communication.
imagine if Mastodon implemented AtProto (BlueSky) and then dropped ActivityPub. the former would increase interoperability, but the latter wouldn't make Mastodon better, it would just break compatibility with other ActivityPub implementations. it would fragment the Fediverse. that's what Mastodon did when it dropped Status.Net. it didn't make ActivityPub or Mastodon better, it just burned bridges. it kicked the ladder after climbing it. it's indefensible.
you can try by making up and pulling absurd, baseless arguments out of your hat, but that doesn't look great. it shows not only your ignorance, but also your blind faith on a project that has already shown not to deserve it, and your determination to defend its jerk moves by making things up.
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
with capitalist endeavors, you can buy domination. so something may be inferior, but still prevail. there's also the "kill" competitors mindset
you're bleeding that world into a zero profit environment and thus failing to make a cogent argument
if somebody wants a feature, they should write it. it will get adopted if people want it
maybe nobody wants what you want
and you can't make demands, you're not a "customer"
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •sure, maybe people don't want a decentralized interoperable social network.
maybe mastodon presenting itself as such is just a way to fool the few people who do.
or maybe people want that, but there are dominant capitalist powers that prevent them from getting it.
maybe dominant capitalist powers are implementing features that serve their own purposes, rather than users', and using their market influence to push it down users' throats.
maybe mastodon is playing like one of them.
maybe you just have no clue of how important these issues are and are handwaving market dominance truisms to defend mastodon's stance as if it were cool for mastodon to behave like a market bully.
maybe what's best for those who dominate markets aren't best for users.
maybe your defending abuse of monopoly power doesn't look as good on you as you seem to think it does.
maybe siding with that dominance with come back and bite you.
maybe you'll learn from that experience then.
CC: @
... Show more...sure, maybe people don't want a decentralized interoperable social network.
maybe mastodon presenting itself as such is just a way to fool the few people who do.
or maybe people want that, but there are dominant capitalist powers that prevent them from getting it.
maybe dominant capitalist powers are implementing features that serve their own purposes, rather than users', and using their market influence to push it down users' throats.
maybe mastodon is playing like one of them.
maybe you just have no clue of how important these issues are and are handwaving market dominance truisms to defend mastodon's stance as if it were cool for mastodon to behave like a market bully.
maybe what's best for those who dominate markets aren't best for users.
maybe your defending abuse of monopoly power doesn't look as good on you as you seem to think it does.
maybe siding with that dominance with come back and bite you.
maybe you'll learn from that experience then.
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
how is mastodon playing capitalism? do you see the absurdity of your narrative?
go ahead, despise mastodon. in a capitalist environment, angry customers are a problem. but there are no customers here. you can make no demands. they don't owe you anything
furthermore, you are not locked out:
if you want something, write it yourself. simple as
your anger is misplaced and depends upon a paradigm that doesn't apply here
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •you brought up capitalism, not me
my argument was one of power dynamics, and if you don't see mastodon play it, you're not paying attention
in general, free software doesn't enable such abusive power dynamics, but there are exceptions: when the software is operated by someone else, in SaaSS or SaaSS-like arrangements
a huge fraction of mastodon users are using it in just this sort of arrangement.
even users of other programs in the interoperable network are vulnerable to the whims of a dominant player who abuses its power.
picture a bank, or a phone company, that becomes so dominant that it figures it can start rejecting transactions or calls coming from or going to competitors, and that, by doing so, it can attract more customers rather than repel them
the one thing that should stop them is the requirement to abide by the interoperation protocols to be part of the network. if they get too big to care, or even so big that not caring plays to their advantage, that spells trouble for the network, and the network risks becoming their walled garden
... Show more...you brought up capitalism, not me
my argument was one of power dynamics, and if you don't see mastodon play it, you're not paying attention
in general, free software doesn't enable such abusive power dynamics, but there are exceptions: when the software is operated by someone else, in SaaSS or SaaSS-like arrangements
a huge fraction of mastodon users are using it in just this sort of arrangement.
even users of other programs in the interoperable network are vulnerable to the whims of a dominant player who abuses its power.
picture a bank, or a phone company, that becomes so dominant that it figures it can start rejecting transactions or calls coming from or going to competitors, and that, by doing so, it can attract more customers rather than repel them
the one thing that should stop them is the requirement to abide by the interoperation protocols to be part of the network. if they get too big to care, or even so big that not caring plays to their advantage, that spells trouble for the network, and the network risks becoming their walled garden as other players get excluded, not because customers prefer them, but because they're forced to play with them.
do you see that this will hurt non-customers?
do you see that market forces alone can't prevent that sort of abuse?
do you not see that making alternatives doesn't solve problems when market forces are abused to exclude alternatives?
why the heck do you defend that kind of abusive behavior?
CC: @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @oblomov@sociale.network @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @oblomov @john @engel
You brought up capitalism. Not in word but in how you describe what mastodon is doing. But it doesn't work because there is no capitalism here. Your error is in applying the wrong paradigm for how the space we are in operates
"the one thing that should stop them is the requirement to abide by the interoperation protocols to be part of the network"
propose the mechanism. assemble the interested parties. make it happen
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Power dynamics exist even outside of capitalism.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •Of course. but since what shapes this environment is not driven by money there is no impediment for Alexandre to address an unaddressed desire, build for it, and people will flock to it.
If it is desired.
Otherwise if mastodon broke some compatibility, and no one reacts with new code, then it means no one cared.
What was broken? Maybe it was to implement a new desired feature. Why didn't the older projects adapt?
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •it did. but by the time it was done with it, mastodon had already pulled the rug and disrupted communication, hurting users on both sides because it could, because it wanted to weaken the other project.
that's abusing market dominance, with similar tricks capitalist dominant players use
why does it matter whether they do so for money, for power, for fame, for ego?
their rationale doesn't matter. what matters is that it hurts users and the network!
you seem to have got the wrong idea that the problem is some feature.
the problem is disregard for the health of the network.
that's not something I or anyone can fix when there is a dominant player that doesn't care, or worse, who actively sets out to hurt other players.
whether they add or remove stuff in ways that break interoperability, that gains them more dominance by abuse of the dominant position, and it hurts others, not only their own users, but users of other interoperable players, and the network at large.
the reason we build standards and interoperable networks is to avoid this
... Show more...it did. but by the time it was done with it, mastodon had already pulled the rug and disrupted communication, hurting users on both sides because it could, because it wanted to weaken the other project.
that's abusing market dominance, with similar tricks capitalist dominant players use
why does it matter whether they do so for money, for power, for fame, for ego?
their rationale doesn't matter. what matters is that it hurts users and the network!
you seem to have got the wrong idea that the problem is some feature.
the problem is disregard for the health of the network.
that's not something I or anyone can fix when there is a dominant player that doesn't care, or worse, who actively sets out to hurt other players.
whether they add or remove stuff in ways that break interoperability, that gains them more dominance by abuse of the dominant position, and it hurts others, not only their own users, but users of other interoperable players, and the network at large.
the reason we build standards and interoperable networks is to avoid this sort of abuse.
when we tolerate that kind of abuse, we allow them to defeat the point of such a network.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
you build something. people use it. or not. beginning and ending of discussion
you have a desire for some interop. so fork mastodon and build it. if people want it, they dump mastodon for your project
that's the entire topic in a nutshell
it does not matter your complaints in anyway whatsoever
networks and protocols come and go
normal and natural
old projects die. new projects are born
you're shouting at clouds
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
furthermore, someday mastodon will die
replaced by some newer project that has features mastodon users have been clamoring for and were never addressed
i hope at such time i have the foresight to not become a bitter old man shouting at clouds angry at the natural progression of things
you're not angry at mastodon
you're angry at life
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I'm not angry. not at mastodon, not at you, and definitely not at life.
I'm disappointed at people who hold unwarranted beliefs, who are so keen on defending bad antisocial practices that they won't even realize the underlying problem, and will fall in the same traps over and over without learning to recognize them
we're supposed to learn from others' experiences to avoid having to get hurt ourselves
I respect your choice to not listen. I hope it doesn't hurt too much.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
Alexandre, you have a limited time on this planet. As do I, as do us all
You need to pick your battles
And you need to have good tactics
I understand the nature of your complaint. And I'm telling you, as long as we're not in a capitalist environment (thank God), all you can do is build as you wish things to be
you can't demand others adhere as you wish, when you have no leverage over them
just build it yourself
Dopes The Frogman
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Dopes The Frogman • • •satan doesn't do social media bickering. he just bodies you
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •as long as you insist that the solution is building (presumably software, or perhaps a network), I can't help the feeling that we're miscommunicating
the software and the network already exist. we could and can talk because we're using this interoperable decentralized network, each one of us using software of our own choice, talking to each other by a largely standardized protocol. none of these require building because they already exist and are satisfactorily operational
the problem is that the present configuration is unstable, because of the concentration of unchecked power
you seem to have mistaken my call for action as an attack on mastodon
I presume you like mastodon very much to feel a need to jump in front of it to defend it from a perceived attack
I'm not attacking it, though. I'm illustrating the concentration of power as a demonstration of the need for the action I'm calling for, both because of what the concentration of power enables it to do, and because it has already done such things.
my call for action is not to attack mastodon,
... Show more...as long as you insist that the solution is building (presumably software, or perhaps a network), I can't help the feeling that we're miscommunicating
the software and the network already exist. we could and can talk because we're using this interoperable decentralized network, each one of us using software of our own choice, talking to each other by a largely standardized protocol. none of these require building because they already exist and are satisfactorily operational
the problem is that the present configuration is unstable, because of the concentration of unchecked power
you seem to have mistaken my call for action as an attack on mastodon
I presume you like mastodon very much to feel a need to jump in front of it to defend it from a perceived attack
I'm not attacking it, though. I'm illustrating the concentration of power as a demonstration of the need for the action I'm calling for, both because of what the concentration of power enables it to do, and because it has already done such things.
my call for action is not to attack mastodon, nor to leave it behind, but to keep its power in check, to understand that the interoperability is valuable and to make that clear to mastodon developers, so that they don't even think of misusing that power in their hands to break interoperability and dismantle the Fediverse that we all rely on; so that by reflex they reject any such destructive ideas.
that kind of clarity about user demands and expectations is something that needs building, and that's exactly what I've been trying to do, in the (vain?) hope that mastodon users will listen, understand, and keep that power in check
I know very well that I can't demand anyone to adhere, and I have no leverage over mastodon users, operators and developers. but mastodon users and operators have leverage over mastodon developers, in as much as mastodon developers get their influence (the power I've been talking about) and their funding largely from these users and operators in this interoperable network.
does that make sense to you? do you see now why your earlier advice didn't make sense to me?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
"the problem is that the present configuration is unstable, because of the concentration of unchecked power"
Alexandre, before mastodon there were other projects. were they perfect? no. mastodon came and people liked it enough to switch. is mastodon perfect? no
people are improving on it
things will change again
i utterly reject your depiction of mastodon as if it is a capitalist centralized entity. it's bullshit
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I can't imagine where you got this "capitalist centralized entity" and why you keep going back to it, but I give up, I can't seem to get the threat to the fediverse out of this power concentration through to you, or, more importantly, how to keep it in check. maybe you're not ready for it, or you don't want to be, whatever. you're not telling me anything new, and I can't get to you something that would clearly be new to you, so I'll leave you alone now. have a good one.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •that's correct. i am not ready for it, and i never will be
because what you're saying is bullshit
the problem is you talk in terms of power and leverage that does exist in a noncapitalist environment
just because mastodon is popular doesn't grant it any power
all someone has to do is write something better and people will flock to that instead. what magical hold do you think mastodon possesses? there is none
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •power has existed since very long before capitalism came to be
mastodon developers make the changes that thousands of instance operators trust blindly, which affect all their users. they also control the largest instance of the fediverse and all of their users.
that is power. not absolute power, but power nevertheless. it doesn't make them prisoners, but it is control over some aspects of their digital lives.
I take it that you're not familiar with the notion of free software, of control over one's own computing, and how ceding it gives others power over your computing and thus your life.
even though mastodon is free software, most mastodon users don't have control over the software that runs the instances they use. this means those who control the instances and the software on them have power over the users.
that power exists even if you don't believe it, even if you call it bullshit.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
what power?
if twitter does something nefarious, people are trapped, there are no choices
if mastodon does something nefarious, boom: everyone goes to another project
this environment is completely consensual and voluntary
everything is open. the code is open. the fediverse is full of infosec people who would notice shenanigans in an instant
your brain is stuck in business mode. and this is not a business
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •it seems very naïve to me to assume that power only arises in business relationships. have you never heard of abusive relationships that aren't business relationships?
you seem to be projecting your own business prejudices on me. I'm not at all reasoning in terms of business. my reasoning is about community power dynamics.
surely you've heard of network effects. that's one factor. if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind, just like they do when they leave Xitter behind. that costs them (not money), so they're less likely to take the leap.
even moving to another server within the same network leaves history behind (another discouraging cost), and depends on working interoperable move
since they don't have control over the servers they use, if the server gets so enshittified as to motivate them to want to move out they might find that the changes also prevent them from moving seamlessly to other servers that haven't been so enshittified
this won't get them stuck, but will require them th
... Show more...it seems very naïve to me to assume that power only arises in business relationships. have you never heard of abusive relationships that aren't business relationships?
you seem to be projecting your own business prejudices on me. I'm not at all reasoning in terms of business. my reasoning is about community power dynamics.
surely you've heard of network effects. that's one factor. if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind, just like they do when they leave Xitter behind. that costs them (not money), so they're less likely to take the leap.
even moving to another server within the same network leaves history behind (another discouraging cost), and depends on working interoperable move
since they don't have control over the servers they use, if the server gets so enshittified as to motivate them to want to move out they might find that the changes also prevent them from moving seamlessly to other servers that haven't been so enshittified
this won't get them stuck, but will require them the painful process of rebuilding all of their connections elsewhere. that's another discouraging cost.
as I said, it's not absolute power, but it is power nevertheless. not business power, not capitalist power, but some control over others' lives through the software they use that's not under their own control.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •"if people were to move to another network, they'd leave their contacts and their post histories behind"
you do understand you can xfer your mastodon account to say, gotosocial? migrate followers? even import your comment history?
you wave your hands and conjure up this dark and stormy menace...
that isn't remotely real
"but some control over others' lives"
none. absolutely none
no lock in
no network effect
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •of course I do. you can transfer it to snac as well. as long as the originating server cooperates. which is only a given as long as it is interoperable. got it?
you need to read up a little (or a lot) more about enshittification and about the nonfree software control tricks that even free software developers sometimes attempt to resort to when they control servers that their users rely on
I sort of wish I could live in your dream world. but it's not real.
not unless you make it so, by exerting the kind of pressure over mastodon that is needed for it to keep interoperable despite the power and the temptations to abuse it.
but I guess that's asking for too much of you, when you can't even see the risk. and then, it's far more comfortable to assume the leopard will never bite your own face, isn't it?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •you admit you can move your account to another project. but then you allude to vast dark forbidding powers mastodon has... that it doesn't really have. you just allude to them. so there's no substance in your argument
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •you know they (and only they) can change how the server you rely on behaves, right?
I've already told you that they've already broken interoperability a few times
try to think about the consequences of that for a while, instead of going one more time into instant denial. I believe you can do that.
have a good night
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
i'm married
my wife could poison my soup at any time
i don't worry about it because i didn't marry a psychotic murderer
whenever you enter into a relationship, in any conceivable system, you place some kind of trust in another party
mastodon is absolutely capable of doing all sorts of vile nasty things
but they aren't going to do it
because they are decentralized social media
not elon musk in a eugen rochko mask
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I presume your wife has never poisoned anyone
mastodon has broken interoperability. intentionally. more than once.
they're not the same.
I'm not saying mastodon is like Xitter or F*k
far from it
(it could be bought by them, but I'm not even going there)
but there is a risk, that can be mitigated by not pretending they're angels, and rather realizing they face pressures and they may sometimes come up with rationalizations to break interoperability again.
they know they can because they're dominant, and they've shown they know it by having done it a number of times
users should mount pressure against their making such jerk moves, is what I'm saying
do you by any chance support their making such jerk moves? it fells like maybe you do
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •i don't think they're angels
but i don't think they're demons
and your broken interop argument is suspect to me
new features require new interop. did mastodon prevent the old projects from writing code to work with new features? or did the old projects just kind of decline?
because this argument that interop has to be set in stone is nonsense
interop will always be changing for new features
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
let's say someone has an extraordinary new featureset everyone loves and they jump on the new project
before long mastodon declines and the new project has millions
does mastodon get to say it's not fair that they broke the network for the new featureset?
or should mastodon just adapt to what everyone wants?
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •You should really look at e.g. Friendica on how things can be done WAY better than the way Mastodon has been handling interop since forever.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •zero argument, i don't know much about friendica. if what you're alluding to is better interop that's wonderful. so more people should flock to friendica
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
i blame the ecosystem
if i build a new feature, and it's awesome, and people want it, fuck interop
everyone else should change their code to get in line with the new feature
this idea of "we have to do interop first" means nothing new can be built without buy in from everyone else. there's no governing body, so some project will drag it's heels. so just ignorant them and build it anyway
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel I'm sorry, but that's bullshit AND toxic. You can absolutely have progress AND interop. Whether you choose to do it the ethical way or not tells everything you need to know about the developers.
Every other project has to bend over backwards to be compatible with Mastodon, but Mastodon doesn't even do the bare minimum to be compatible with other platforms. This is basically the definition of abuse of power.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
you have no idea what you're talking about. there is no power, because there is no system
you act like this is hierarchy, where mastodon, any project, owes something. they don't owe anyone anything. they do whatever the fuck they want. it's a flat nonsystem
this is open source
yet you think you can ring some office in a structure, complain, and get results
there's no money
there's no boss
understand where you are
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
This is bullshit. Power dynamics exist in any context where two or more people or groups interact.
Open sources has nothing to do with it. What really matters are numbers, and you can assess the ethos of developers based on their attitude towards the rest of the ecosystem and whether or not it changes when they are the underdog or not.
Also, *especially* in Mastodon case, there absolutely IS money involved
1/n
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
Regarding the ethos, compare how Mastodon behaved when it was a newcomer with very few users vs how it behaves now. When it got started, the federation protocol was OStatus, which was massively underspecified (even worse than ActivityPub), so the only way to join the network was to do what the others were doing, especially the dominant (= most used) implementation at the time, Status.Net (GNU Social).
2/n
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
And Mastodon absolutely DID care about interop with Status.Net *at the time*. Then it grew in numbers, opted to switch to ActivityPub and gave Status.Net compatibility a big middle finder, because now *IT* was the dominant implementation in the Fediverse space, and decided it didn't need to worry about OStatus compatibility anymore, as it wouldn't lose users to it.
3/n
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
because ostatus is old shit! no dms. no privacy controls. etc. they didn't ditch ostatus, ostatus is an old car and they built a new car
you're absolutely absurd
"you MUST maintain your old car and you cannot leave it rotting in your garage!"
new and better and replaces old and busted. old and busted is not deserving of anything
and someday the same will happen to mastodon
no one will cry then, no one cries now
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
And they *still* don't care about interop with other Fediverse platforms that DO use ActivityPub. For example, Mastodon properly handles Note objects. The official excuse is that Mastodon is a microblogging platform, but it's a piss-poor excuse, since it CAN handle the EXACT SAME CONTENT if it's presented as a Note rather than an Image or Article.
4/n
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
Supporting other types would be TRIVIAL (look at the mediaType rather than the object type to see if you can handle it), but the devs don't care, so the OTHER platforms had to bend over backwards and present Image and Article objects as if they were Notes (a violation of the standard) to make content visible to Mastodon users, even if a trivial change in Mastodon could have handled this.
5/n
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
But it's even worse actually: now that WordPress is joining the Fediverse, and that's 600M potential users dwarfing the Mastodon numbers, NOW Mastodon devs suddenly start thinking «hm mayb we should support incoming Article objects». Why only Article and why only now? Because of power dynamics.
6/n
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •because it's 600M potential users!
who wouldn't
you have the weirdest position: old shit has to be supported
no it doesn't. you throw old shit out
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •You sound like a Google developer.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
oh yeah
as i explain to you open source, and you push back as if it's a hierarchy with obligations, that means *i* am the corporate goon here
that makes perfect sense
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •“Google Chrome is open source”
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •ok i want you to imagine that i'm not ben royce. i'm elon musk in a rubber mask
whatever you need to tell yourself because i present to you the horrible idea that causes pain in your mind that there are no systems of obligations in open source
whatever you need to tell yourself about my trully malicious demonic monstruous cackling moustache twirling intentions
it's a farce
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I don't give a rat's ass about who you are. I'm just pointing out what your argument implies. If you don't like it, that's your problem, not mine.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •right
i understand
when i try to explain to your there are no obligations in open source that obviously means i am a corporate goon
you got it! 👍
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •again, if you don't like the ethical implication of your position, that's your problem, not mine.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
you don't have a problem with me oblomov
you have a problem with reality
you reject reality, not me
you're shooting the messenger
if it makes you feel better, shoot away, i don't care
reality doesn't change though
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I strive for a better world rather than reveling in its shit.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •well articulate a coherent means to do so, rather than just gnashing your teeth in frustration that it is shit
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •it has been done, and you keep focusing on that, so that's enough time wasted on that.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
oblomov, this entire thread is a farce
i'm arguing with two people who think they have leverage they do not. for purposes that can only be fulfilled in a hierarchy that does not exist
and for pointing out the obvious, i'm apparently a google goon and a libertarian moron
🤣
pure farce
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •on the contrary, it has been very illuminating on your preference to accept and defend abusive and toxic behavior. It's not every day that I get to add a note to a user profile.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •this is like saying "you defend drunk driving merely because you accept drunk drivers exist"
i accept the reality in a flat nonhierarchy that mastodon can do whatever it wants, therefore i am defending everything mastodon does?
🤣
think whatever you want oblomov. if you need to smear me with intentions i don't have and statements i never made, go for it
we all need to cope
please write "asshole" in my note
thanks
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
When people point out that drunk driving leads to loss of life, there's two ways to respond:
«true, and that's bad, mayb we should do something to minimize drunk driving and its negative effect» is one
«that's life, there's nothing you can do to eliminate drunk driving so better live with it» is the other
You chose one, we chose the other. That tells more about us than it does about drunk driving indeed.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •more like i'm arguing with
"we stop drunk drivers by demanding they stop drinking, that will work. i have magical leverage over their behavior"
and now you understand the real contrast in arguments here
of course the real world solution to drunk drivers is punishment. in a system
and there's no system here
and now i get called immoral for pointing out reality
shoot that messenger oblomov! shoot him!
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
thanks for confirming you're saying what I said you were saying, and that you didn't understand our argument.
BTW, «there's nothing we can do to change things, so we should stop thinking about how to change things» is bullshit. It's an excuse, and an exigology
smbc-comics.com/?id=2461
Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal
www.smbc-comics.comBen Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •you absolutely should change things
stop lying about who i am and what i am saying, and go change them!
but i think you'll find your efforts are in vain if you don't even understand the environment you are in
my deep apologies that in my efforts to describe that environment, i'm a google goon, a libertarian moron, and an immoral defender of drunk driving 🤦
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •oh good, I was missing deflection and projection from the note, thanks.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •again, if you don't like the implications of what you say, that's not my problem, and pointing that out is not name calling.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •oblomov: whatever you need to cope in this world, go for it. we all have frustrations. if you need to think i'm terrible things because you reject what i say about the topic, that has nothing to do with your smears, do what you have to do. i understand it's difficult for you
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
LOL
Nice try, but again, projecting won't help.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
do you understand what projection is?
good god man
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Better than you, apparently.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •and we've arrived at the deeply intellectual and emotionally mature "no, u" "no, u" "no, u" stage of the farce thread
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
mostly I'm noticing that you seem to be in a pissing contest with trying to drop the last word in, because I can't explain to myself why you keep responding when you have nothing more of relevant to say.
(Cue useless response in 3 … 2 … 1)
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •useless response:
oblomov, something like 20 comments ago i stopped taking anything here seriously and decided to just have some fun with two don quixote type characters tilting at windmills who don't even understand what open source is
and i sincerely thank you for the entertainment
we can go 100 more comments if you like
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Theeere you go. I'm glad you're happy.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
i am
are you enjoying interacting with a projecting, libertarian moron, google goon, immoral drunk driver defender?
what else you got for me
🍿
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
I'm procrastinating doing a boring task.
You should probably purge the reply list because I doubt anyone else is interested in the banter.
sociale.network/@oblomov/11615…
Oblomov
2026-03-02 09:53:41
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
oblomov you've sent me a number of links. i haven't clicked a single one of them
the purpose of a shitposting thread is the interaction, not academic citations
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
sociale.network/@oblomov/11615…
Oblomov
2026-03-02 09:53:41
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •ahhh. mmm. wow. yes. ahhh
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce
sociale.network/@oblomov/11615…
Oblomov
2026-03-02 09:53:41
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
The fact that Mastodon only cares about interop when it's the underdog shows the shitty ethos of its leadership and developers.
It is about about power AND it is about numbers AND —ESPECIALLY for Mastodon— it is about MONEY. Because if people move to other platforms Mastodon loses users, loses control, and its PAID developers lose their income stream from donations.
7/n
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
1. ostatus works
2. mastodon uses it
3. mastodon improves on ostatus
4. mastodon abandons ostatus
"no! you can't do that!"
why the fuck not?
Oblomov
in reply to Oblomov • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
So you see minor Fediverse platforms working on improving interoperability, improving data and profile portability, giving users control to freely move between servers and platforms, and Mastodon NOT GIVING A SHIT and you still go to all these lengths to defend it, well, it says more about you than anything else.
8/8
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
so i can't migrate my account to gotosocial?
oh wait i can
what the fuck are you on about
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
If you think the possibility to migrate accounts is what I'm talking about, you have no idea what I'm talking about.
joinfediverse.wiki/Nomadic_ide…
socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/…
socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/…
(etc)
Nomadic identity for the fediverse?
SocialHubBen Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •i don't care
no one fucking cares
people build things, and they work or not, and they are adapted or not
that's it
there's no obligations here. there's no heirarchy here. no one owes you, or me, or anyone else anything
welcome to open source. it's anarchy
and you act like you're in a board room meeting
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •anarchy has an ethos, and you are violating that ethos. That's not anarchy, that's the right-wing libertarian “might makes right” attitude that is driving us to fascism in real world politics. And you're supporting that here. Congratulations.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •anarchy has no ethos
anarch*ism* has an ethos
and now i'm a "right-wing libertarian"
🤣 🤣 🤣
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •that's a very naïve view of how interop influences perceptions and choices in a network or market with a dominant player
when the dominant player makes an incompatible change, everyone else is at fault for not keeping up
when someone else makes an incompatible change, nobody moves to it because it can't even talk to the dominant player where nearly all of their friends are
even when the dominant player drops an interop feature, some misguided people will find a way to blame the victims
incompatible features is not the way to evolve an interoperable network; it's the way to fragment it and kill it. the term in standards circles is Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. you may have come across that before.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
i just don't understand the inability to understand: nobody cares
we do whatever the fuck we want. we answer to no one
and yet you act like there is some sort of structure, obligations, checks and balances
nonsense
this is anarchy. this is open source. no one owes you anything
no company. no salary. no hierachy. just people doing *whatever the fuck they want*
all of your complaints mean nothing
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •that's exactly the problem. users should be aware of the risks, and care about them, checking the developer's power over them.
that's exactly the unchecked power I'm speaking of.
with great power, comes great responsibility
if you extend your implementation recklessly, you undermine the very network you depend on to exist.
it kills the goose that lays golden eggs.
but if the developers don't see that, users who care about the network could and should help them see it.
this is true
that's why my argument is based on alignment of self interests
users want a working, interoperable network
mastodon wants users for influence and funding
mastodon has power over users because code is law, and mo
... Show more...that's exactly the problem. users should be aware of the risks, and care about them, checking the developer's power over them.
that's exactly the unchecked power I'm speaking of.
with great power, comes great responsibility
if you extend your implementation recklessly, you undermine the very network you depend on to exist.
it kills the goose that lays golden eggs.
but if the developers don't see that, users who care about the network could and should help them see it.
this is true
that's why my argument is based on alignment of self interests
users want a working, interoperable network
mastodon wants users for influence and funding
mastodon has power over users because code is law, and most users don't control their servers
users check that power by making it clear that they care about the diverse network with interop
nobody owes you anything, but if they want something from you collectively, you collectively have some leverage
don't waste it, but use it intelligently, is what I'm asking, so that we have a healthier network even if mastodon developers don't care about the goose's health
this is community power dynamics with intelligent checks and balances in collective pursuit of self interests
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
there's no power!
open source
anarchy
people build whatever
people use whatever
whatever happens, happens
no chain of command, no network of obligations
and you continue to insist you have a position to stand on that says "somebody owes me"
they don't owe you shit. no one owes me shit. no one owes anyone shit
no one can tell you what to do. no one can tell me what to do
please understand where you are
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •dude, wake up
nobody owes you or me
but they have interests in us
so we have leverage
it's stupid to not use it to keep this network that we like healthier, if the developers don't care about the network, but care about getting users
please understand where you are, as you say
or remain stubborn and miss opportunities to actually defend what you evidently enjoy
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •alexandre:
enjoy advocating for interop with a dead protocol
killed by tech improvement for better features
no wait, sorry, i mean killed just because mastodon is unrelenting demonic evil
go for it
you have massive leverage, and a completely airtight rationale for doing so
excellent use of your time
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I like how you completely missed the point and keep focusing on the ostatus thing because that's really the only thing you can do in this discussion.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
that's right
somebody else brought up ostatus
so i responded about ostatus
completely my error
i deeply aologize
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •you're missing the point. I wonder if you're that dense, or just playing it
I'm not advocating for an old but functional protocol. that was a fscking example of a jerk anti-competitive anti-interop move from a time when the protocol was still in very active use.
removing it didn't bring any better features, and claiming that it did makes you sound clueless
I by myself have very little leverage. we collectively could have a lot, if there weren't anti-leverage jerk defenders among us.
solidarity is valuable where I come from
you know what we say about citizens or workers who fight against their own rights?
it applies to netizens as well
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activity…
read the second paragraph ^^^
"removing it didn't bring any better features" is just a straight up lie
you insist mastodon abandoned ostatus because cackling moustache twirling evil
when all they did was implement new features
alexandre you're losing credibility
ActivityPub - Wikipedia
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •mastodon implemented AP, which brought new features
then it worked with both protocols for a while, and benefited from the interop
then it removed OStatus, which was a jerk move that didn't bring any features whatsoever
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
how do you implement a new protocol with new features, and it also supports an old protocol without those features
you don't. not because of vast unfathomable evil. but because it is just practically impossible
come on man
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •it's so impossible that it happened. go figure!
mastodon had a full implementation of AP in release 1.6. then it dropped OStatus in release 3.0.
and it's not even the only case of multi protocol support. friendica and hubzilla implement multiple different protocols. so does dovecot (imap, pop, and more). oh, look, browsers also support multiple protocols: http, https, ftp, ... Emacs ange-ftp supports all of these plus ssh and rsync and more. http servers typically support multiple versions of http, and openssh has supported multiple versions of the ssh protocol.
they don't go about making up problems that don't exist, and inventing impossibilities that aren't there.
it takes a lot of wrong assumptions to conclude it can't be done to defend the indefensible.
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
alexandre:
activitypub does restricted-audience messages
ostatus does public, broadcast-style messages
you can't use ostatus with mastodon
it's simply impossible
you've lost credibility on this topic in my eyes
you just seem to be arguing stubbornly rather than admitting fault when you must to be considered seriously
it's perfectly fine to admit fault
i screw up all the time
and then i admit it
you can too
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •it's so simply impossible to use mastodon with OStatus that it was supported until 3.0 removed it.
it's so simply impossible that, before AP was introduced, there was only OStatus in mastodon
this is really wild! you got an infinite improbability drive over there?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •"it's so simply impossible to use mastodon with OStatus that it was supported until 3.0 removed it."
yes, because at that point mastodon improved their software to do something that was impossible to do with ostatus: restricted audience messages. you can't do that with ostatus
why are you still arguing? do you not see the folly? this is all very obvious at this point
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •you mean direct messages?
release 2.6 revamped support for them. this means they were already supported before.
2.6 was a while before 3.0. I can tell because 2
mastodon supported OStatus, and did direct messages, presumably just not with OStatus
this is not so hard to understand
such things happen all the time with programs that care about interoperability
you know that file you saved with an old word processor
you can still load it with a newer word processor, despite the addition of new features
you may even be able to save it back for the older word processor to be able to load it, but newer features may be discarded
it's not rocket science, just good engineering that benefits users
now, I guess I know why you are arguing
I assume you're not trying to embarrass yourself, and that you're not as stupid as you're pretending to be, so I must conclude you're trolling
it's not cool to troll a person who's autistic and tends to interpret things literally
you seemed nice at first
CC: @
... Show more...you mean direct messages?
release 2.6 revamped support for them. this means they were already supported before.
2.6 was a while before 3.0. I can tell because 2
mastodon supported OStatus, and did direct messages, presumably just not with OStatus
this is not so hard to understand
such things happen all the time with programs that care about interoperability
you know that file you saved with an old word processor
you can still load it with a newer word processor, despite the addition of new features
you may even be able to save it back for the older word processor to be able to load it, but newer features may be discarded
it's not rocket science, just good engineering that benefits users
now, I guess I know why you are arguing
I assume you're not trying to embarrass yourself, and that you're not as stupid as you're pretending to be, so I must conclude you're trolling
it's not cool to troll a person who's autistic and tends to interpret things literally
you seemed nice at first
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •How do you send a restricted audience message on a broadcast only protocol
How do you expect a software that has restricted audience messages to honor a protocol that cannot do that
"you mean direct messages"
that and followers only and unlisted
Alexandre you do not understand what you are talking about
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •@benroyce @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
You don't: you warn the user that one of the recipient cannot receive restricted messages.
You're making mountains out of molehills to defend an indefensible position.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •I have a better answer:
You just drop support for ostatus
Because no one gives a shit except some hilariously absurd don quixote characters with the stupidest fucking axe to grind
Once we had CD players. Now we have memory sticks. No one remotely sane complains that they can't stick a CD into a USB port
It's called tech progress
Seriously you two are the biggest clowns
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •maybe ask mastodon developers how they managed such a feat
you may want to ask GNU social developers as well
or maybe do your own research, instead of embarrassing yourself
you're destroying your reputation as a knowledgeable person on matters of software, if you had any
me dá vergonha alheia
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •Eu estava pensando no efeito Dunning-Kruger
Seriously you both are clowns
You just drop support for antiquated tech. Completely normal and expected
This is the most hilarious farce of a thread I've been in in awhile. I thank you for the entertainment
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •funny how this excuse doesn't work for other incompatibilities mastodon introduced, no?
dunning-kruger indeed
you think they're lazy, incompetent, or malicious?
hint: can't be lazy because removing ostatus took plenty of work
hint: can't be incompetent because it largely works
hmm...
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
Yes mastodon introduced incompatibilities with ostatus
They're called IMPROVEMENTS you doorknob
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •and still you insist on ignoring the point, which is that they could have kept OStatus support and only use the improvements for AP only. They could, they chose not to.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
i already answered that point. You can scroll up and read sunshine. But for the sake of your sundowning dementia: no one gives a flying fuck about an antiquated protocol except 2 absurd characters with the most hilarious obsession
but don't mind me and my sharp language. Remember i'm a google goon, libertarian moron, projection dependent, immoral drunk driver apologist
🤣
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Yes, you already pointed out that the Mastodon developers not give a flying fuck about interop is a “fact of life”. And we already pointed out the ethical implications of that. Calling us names because you're uncomfortable with the ethical implications of your remarks only tells on you.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
The ethical implications...
Of not supporting a defunct substandard protocol
The *ethical implications*
BWAHAHAHAHA
Oh man this is exquisite
You can't make this shit up
Oblomov
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •And you keep ignoring how OStatus is only one example in a string of examples, but hey, again, whatever you need to protect yoursel.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Oblomov • • •@oblomov @lxo @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
Oh dear
Oblomov is signalling in their dishonest way that they concede the point I am making and so now they must meekly retreat and allude to other topics
Come on, I want to hear more about the
*ethical implications*
🤣
Of rote simple tech progress, better and more features, in social media protocols
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •must... resist...
I don't think I want to go there
ethics seems to be a very alien topic for you
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •well it's true life and death have many ethics related issues
however, life and death are inescapable facts of existence
usually though the ethics comes up when we're talking about living things, rather than networking protocols. it would be quite absurd to do that
Dopes The Frogman
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Dopes The Frogman • • •@macacator @lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
😂 😂 😂
just mute the thread
we're doing geek shitposting
Dopes The Frogman
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Dopes The Frogman • • •some go on cocaine benders, some go on alcohol benders. and some go on social media dopamine benders
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •it's "simply impossible" for you to be that many things
per your own theory, you can only be one thing 😛
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
No theory friend. Reality
New tech rises. Old tech dies
Hey lots of people enjoy old tech
You can run an ostatus project and enjoy yourself. It's a perfectly fine hobby
You might notice that aficionados of say, the Commodore 64, aren't so delusional that they demand in great high holy indignation that all modern webpages be renderable in a browser running on commodore OS on an 8 bit system
Engraçado pra caramba!
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •did you see the renewed C64?
commodore.net/
it can still run 40+yo programs
just a few more years and they're going to be in the public domain
how's that for backward compatibility?
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
i think that's fucking awesome
but just so you know, this is not exactly a major product line, in case you think you're making a counterpoint
otherwise, if you're just interested in concluding the laughfest thread for today, we can leave it at this high note
it was fun!
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •nope. they implemented AP, a different protocol with different properties
AFAIK ostatus compatibility was not broken until they removed it
even if it was the same protocol, there are plenty of programs, both servers and clients, that support multiple versions of protocols, and even multiple protocols. that's no excuse
it's not even like they're unaware or incompetent to implement compatible extensions, as they've done that a number of times when it suited them
other fediverse implementations support multiple protocols to this date
sorry to say but you're wrong wrong wrong
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
Ok you win
You've humbled me Alexandre
I deeply apologize
I underestimated the heroic passion you have for a substandard antiquated protocol
Next time I see Don Quijote charging at a windmill, I will stand aside and shed a tear for his brave fight for what is truly truly important and consequential in this world
I myself am deeply disappointed that mastodon has no support for NNTP and AOL messenger
🤣
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •this conversation has no winners, only losers
I accept whatever truth there is in your apologies
just build them 🙂
here, take my map with plenty of windmills 🙂
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •@lxo @oblomov @Jirikiha @macacator @MyWoolyMastadon @john @engel
"'Ok you win'
this conversation has no winners, only losers"
Oh yes alexandre
You're missing a conception here of what is called "sarcasm"
cabeça de vento
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •nice signature 😛 😀
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •O homem de La Mancha nunca viajou para a região do Alto Alentejo, portanto, devemos lidar com o vento em nossas cabeças em vez de moinhos de vento.
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •I don't think they're demons either
they're human. and corporate.
they dropped an interop protocol to harm other fediverse servers before they had their AP implementation ready. typical anti-competitive jerk move. that move didn't provide any advantage whatsoever to their own users, only harm to those who used to be able to communicate with other fediverse users through the dropped protocol, but lost their connections.
what's suspect about that? that it doesn't fit your angelical expectations about mastodon?
new features can generally be added in ways that don't break compatibility, and that's important. everyone else has to take that path, because they're not dominant, and it happens quite often. mastodon, for being dominant, can afford to impose incompatibilities on everyone else. that's the Microsoft way, the Google way, not the fediverse way, not the interoperable community way.
we who care about community, about community-developed standards, and about the interoperability that enables us to choose what software we use to communicate, should make
... Show more...I don't think they're demons either
they're human. and corporate.
they dropped an interop protocol to harm other fediverse servers before they had their AP implementation ready. typical anti-competitive jerk move. that move didn't provide any advantage whatsoever to their own users, only harm to those who used to be able to communicate with other fediverse users through the dropped protocol, but lost their connections.
what's suspect about that? that it doesn't fit your angelical expectations about mastodon?
new features can generally be added in ways that don't break compatibility, and that's important. everyone else has to take that path, because they're not dominant, and it happens quite often. mastodon, for being dominant, can afford to impose incompatibilities on everyone else. that's the Microsoft way, the Google way, not the fediverse way, not the interoperable community way.
we who care about community, about community-developed standards, and about the interoperability that enables us to choose what software we use to communicate, should make pressure such as:
masto,don't even think of abusing your dominant position
🙂
CC: @oblomov@sociale.network @Jirikiha@raphus.social @macacator@mastodon.social @MyWoolyMastadon@toot.community @john@vyrse.social @engel@mastodon.social @everton137@vivaldi.net
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •"what's suspect about that? that it doesn't fit your angelical expectations about mastodon?"
more like it's suspect it doesn't fit with your demonic expectations about mastodon
i say: build whatever the fuck you want, fuck interop, and if people want a feature that isn't supported somewhere else: oh well. the other project better play catch up with the new feature
that has nothing to do with pro- or anti- mastodon
Alexandre Oliva
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩 • • •hmm, maybe the "it" was compatibility with GNU social?
that compatibility was in Mastodon from day one. it was there before ActivityPub came to exist.
but Mastodon decided to drop it, to break compatibility with other instances with diverse servers that still used the original Fediverse protocol
that's not collaboration. that's sabotage. and it was only possible because of the very centralization of power I'm speaking of.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 🇸🇩
in reply to Alexandre Oliva • • •it was dropped for any number of reasons. malice, incompetence, just not caring. and you want it. so you write it. and then it gets adopted
the double edge sword of open source is you can do whatever you want. but also there is no centralized hierarchy that is responsive to your demands
you do not pay mastodon. so they have no obligation to meet your demands
you're thinking in terms of business relationships. but there is none here. they can't disappoint you because they don't owe you
Stuck Here
in reply to Oblomov • • •Yep. It's one of the issues with Federated instances. You edit or delete a post but your original thought is captured for the world to see by someone who quoted it. I guess there's other ways to lose control of what you put out there. The bigger Federated space becomes the more likely you'll regret letting your original 3am toot escape.
Wm.son
in reply to Stuck Here • • •@MyWoolyMastadon @benroyce @engel
Not wrong. I do feel a pang of guilt if I mute someone who is posting in a different language, though. Or is posting a lot of tech based fixes or informatiin abuut specificprograms, buyt I am not technical at all.
And, you know, the whole three years of HS French that I don't remember!
ticho
in reply to everton137 • • •At the risk of being the stereotypical "reply guy", sample size of one post can have misleading results. 😀
Amount of boosts/reposts for any given post is as much about having a good message and enough followers, as well as about pure luck, since most people's feeds are moving quickly, and they do not spend all their time glued to their social apps.
It seems weird that Bluesky, whose raison d'etre was "Twitter, but not evil" would have users this disinterested in this topic. 🤷
Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to ticho • • •@ticho fair but the lack of engagement on Bluesky is truly shocking. Casey Newton has 250k followers there and when he shares one of his articles he may get something like 15 boosts (like, the latest article he shared). Yes 15, not 150.
I got 400 boosts on Mastodon the last time I shared a link.
I had a Bluesky account with 1.1k followers and zero interactions. Ditto for Fedi friends who have 6k followers there.
It's a thing.
@everton137
ticho
in reply to Elena Rossini ⁂ • • •@_elena Maybe Bluesky has a completely different "usage culture"
More passive consumption and less interaction.
More uni-directional broadcasting from "content creators" to "consumers", and less conversation?
But hm, that would explain fewer replies, but probably not fewer reposts and likes.
Being no expert, it really seems very strange. Maybe Bluesky is just dead and full of bot squads which only allow certain kinds of messaging to go viral? I hope not!
Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to ticho • • •@ticho I think it replicates a lot of the toxic ways of Twitter, so popular posts are typically those that induce rage. Accounts that post about US politics have A LOT of interactions
@everton137
Phoenix Paulina Schmid
in reply to Elena Rossini ⁂ • • •@_elena This! Bluesky in it's history was exactly designed as Dorsey's Twitter was. It it wasn't for Musk then Twitter would have been what Bluesky (the app) is today.
CC: @ticho @everton137
Elena Rossini ⁂
in reply to Phoenix Paulina Schmid • • •LittlePolarBear
in reply to Elena Rossini ⁂ • • •That's one reason I left Bsky for fedi. Bsky was nothing but liberal rage instead of the alt right of Twitter. I was getting mad, not value. Fedi has some of that content but far more other discussions that I actually enjoy reading. Happy I made the swap.
chris
in reply to everton137 • • •Bob van Os
in reply to everton137 • • •TheoWasHere
in reply to everton137 • • •Kim Possible
in reply to everton137 • • •GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to everton137 • • •GhostOnTheHalfShell
in reply to everton137 • • •Commercial and algorithm based platforms can’t be public squares.
A for-profit algorithm is shaped by spectacle and engagement, not discourse.
They only offer an illusion of a town square.
Grow Fediverse
in reply to everton137 • • •I have no faith that there is fair content surfacing in an ecosystem where all the following factors are true:
A. Algorithmic feeds
B. VC / Advertising based funding
C. Platforming and verifying fascists
A + B + C = Content Supression. Every time. There's incentive to squelch who fascists dont like.
Posting in for profit spaces who accept the money and/or social brand reach of fascists is akin to trying to get the word out by yelling while someone covers your face with a pillow. Yelling in a pillow can be cathardic, but no one else is gonna hear.
gabboman the wafrn dev
in reply to everton137 • • •The post is good for mastodon but sucks for bluesky.
I have posts that explode on bsky and bomb on the mastodon side. And I say same post literaly
everton137
in reply to gabboman the wafrn dev • • •Rob Ricci
in reply to everton137 • • •@gabboman I'll give you an example, my lab discovered a magtape of the UNIX v4 source code from 1973. Did extremely well here, nothing at all over on bluesky.
discuss.systems/@ricci/1155047…
Which is fine, just a different audience.
Rob Ricci
2025-11-06 20:49:19
nellie-m
in reply to Rob Ricci • • •@ricci @gabboman
I remember seeing that post, and I don’t really have a clue just how remarkable this is but it sounded fabulous 🤩
Emin Rahmanov
in reply to everton137 • • •Taran Rampersad
in reply to everton137 • • •the metrics are part of the problem.
The web 2.0 era metrics are ubiquitous, and quantitative. And, on centralized platforms, are gamed at first by people run bots, now by ai bots.
And algorithms.
I don't know how bluesky curates content.
On mastodon, I do my own curation and dip in the fediverse often.
Because I am interested in quality, not quantity.
That is a human thing. Because something is popular does not mean it is right or good.
GF493D
in reply to everton137 • • •Sibshops
in reply to everton137 • • •There are some topics which seem to do super well on Mastodon and not so much on BlueSky.
AI is another topic that does well on mastodon, but not so much on other social media.
🇪🇺 Paul Schoonhoven 🍋🍉
in reply to everton137 • • •@McWabbit and on my timeline Mastodon is growing pretty steady.
For years I use the global number of notifications/day as indicator.
Where early 2025 it was around 100 on a good day, later it was 100 on average and begin 2026 many days 130-150.
(Numbers only say much about the posts itself. It is the interaction on the post that count and have a wide range per post.)
aria
in reply to everton137 • • •Apriloq - Please Use Alt Text
in reply to everton137 • • •Toni Aittoniemi
in reply to everton137 • • •Jerome
in reply to everton137 • • •It is something they can give to their bosses to show that they worked hard.
Mastodon does not offer that. Marketing will not use it.
Which is a good thing.
James Wells
in reply to Jerome • • •I would not quite say that no advertisers would use it. The server I started on had a lot of advertisements, a lot automated advertisements.
That server has since gone away, but it was there and spamming the local timeline with ads for whatever, including sexual congress.
Netraven
in reply to everton137 • • •Sassinake! - ⊃∪∩⪽
in reply to everton137 • • •I go both ways, so I went ahead and boosted you on BS.
there's no algorithm, but a hell of a lot of blocklists and starter packs now, so maybe that played a role.
anyway - I hope such 'helpers' don't come here, and cripple my ability to 'curate my own feed'.
Collette's Brain
in reply to Sassinake! - ⊃∪∩⪽ • • •Sassinake! - ⊃∪∩⪽
in reply to Collette's Brain • • •but it's not mandatory.
Vanessa Greene
in reply to everton137 • • •Manc AvGeek
in reply to everton137 • • •I did it 4 years ago, and havent been back since.
Nantucket Lit
in reply to everton137 • • •0xDECAFBAD
in reply to everton137 • • •*The* Paul Brown
in reply to everton137 • • •Fedinaut
in reply to everton137 • • •@everton137
A committed female journalist who campaigns for feminism and against BigTech recently had the following interactions for a post/trööt that she posted identically on Mastodon and Bluesky
On Mastodon
1 Like
0 Quotes
2 Retweets
2 Comments
On Bluesky
831 likes
10 Quotes
214 Reposts
23 comments
12 Bookmarks
But hey, if Elon Musk is a more relevant person for you to talk about, then so be it.
everton137
in reply to Fedinaut • • •@fedinaut it would be interesting to check her posts to check the topic and the dynamic of interactions.
I wish we didn't need to talk about the richest individual on earth trying to destroy democracies.
Fedinaut
in reply to everton137 • • •@everton137
Interesting, suddenly you want to look into that more closely.
everton137
in reply to Fedinaut • • •everton137
in reply to Fedinaut • • •Alexander Goeres 𒀯
in reply to everton137 • • •@everton137
public institutions should switch to the fediverse and leave x behind. this would automatically increase the relevance of the network just like it did with twitter.
but convincing "normal" people to switch to some fediverse platform? i don't think this will work. all those who are still left outside the fediverse are folks who are totally out of their depths when having to choose one fediverse server to create an account for them? those people are totally fine to lecture you for hours on the intrinsic differences of certain car types oder different brands of makeup or breakfast cereal. but when told: "choose on of these servers, create an account and start" they all play dead whining :"what? how .. how should i do this?? i don't understand!?" ... and all the tech journalists join them in their wailing ...
Grow Fediverse
in reply to everton137 • • •everton137
in reply to Grow Fediverse • • •