The teacher said "In English a double negative forms a positive. In some languages, though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However, there is no language wherein a double positive can form a negative."
A voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah, right."
A voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah, right."
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rzeta0
in reply to Col • • •English is my second language and phrases like
"we don't want no education"
always bother me.
EF
in reply to rzeta0 • • •HighlandLawyer
in reply to EF • • •A common issue in language learning/linguistics is how any given language uses double negatives and negative questions.
EF
in reply to HighlandLawyer • • •HighlandLawyer
in reply to EF • • •Questions are good. Frustratingly, languages are illogical so even when you learn "the rule", you then come up against particular dialects or idioms which contradict that rule. Happy happy joy joy. (Another idiom where emphatic positive means a negative)
Frank Bennett 🇯🇵
in reply to EF • • •The Penguin of Evil
in reply to EF • • •@EF @rzeta0 to me a double negative is usually emphatic. It's complicated because double negatives in English work differently in different bits of the UK, hence the guidance not to use them when you need clarity. There are lots of cases though like 'no he did not break wind' that are universal-ish
English is what happens when you steal good ideas randomly from everyone else but have nobody doing the architecture for it 🤣
Col
in reply to rzeta0 • • •rzeta0
in reply to Col • • •Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE
in reply to rzeta0 • • •Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE
in reply to Tim Ward ⭐🇪🇺🔶 #FBPE • • •C++ Wage Slave
in reply to rzeta0 • • •@rzeta0
I believe that example is quite intentional. It's meant to be wrong.
@kibcol1049
Eggs now in different baskets.
in reply to rzeta0 • • •@rzeta0 It is a dialect form in the bits of the North of England that I grew up in. Maybe other parts of the UK too.
As in:
"We don't need nothing from you."
Which in more standard English would have been:
"We don't need anything from you.".
It has always seemed to me to be the interchangebility of anything/nothing and any/no as a reinforcement of the negative rather than necessarily a use of double negatives as is normally practiced in UK English.
Paavi (ei se paavi)
in reply to rzeta0 • • •@stevewfolds
in reply to Col • • •Darth Hideout 🏳️🌈
in reply to @stevewfolds • • •Tell us the lousy one first!
Col
in reply to @stevewfolds • • •Doug 🌈🇨🇦
in reply to @stevewfolds • • •Nicolas Pettiaux
in reply to @stevewfolds • • •Carl
in reply to Col • • •Petrichor ᚄᚔᚅᚐᚁᚆᚃᚒᚔᚂ
in reply to Col • • •SarcastiCanadian
in reply to Petrichor ᚄᚔᚅᚐᚁᚆᚃᚒᚔᚂ • • •@sinabhfuil. And in every bureaucracy (corporate and public) ever "Sure, OK."
@kibcol1049
Wolf_Baginski
in reply to Col • • •Eleder Únelegeb
in reply to Wolf_Baginski • • •What happens is here irony acts, and that's why the meaning changes; it's not a syntax thing, like the double negative stuff.
jack
in reply to Eleder Únelegeb • • •@eleder @Wolf_Baginski In German, you can express something analogous with "Ja, nee, is' klar" ("Yes, naa, sure"), i.e. yes-no-yes.
What do you make of that? 😉
D2
in reply to Eleder Únelegeb • • •Iwillyeah
in reply to Col • • •Col
in reply to Iwillyeah • • •Markus Feilner
in reply to Col • • •"Oh yeah for sure, yes" and more are very typical there. And Bavarian has quadruple negatives that stay negative. "Naa, koane Masern hob I no nia net gehabt!" for example. stays negative, the speaker never has caught the measles. @chillicampari can confirm
Eggs now in different baskets.
in reply to Markus Feilner • • •@mfeilner @chillicampari Then there is "jo" in Norwegian which (among other uses) is a "Yes" that preceeds the other person first affirming and then disagreeing with you in some way.
"Kan jeg ta bussen herfra til Ullevaal?"
"Can I get to Ullevaal from here by bus?"
"Jo, men det er lettere å ta en taxi"
"Yes, but it is easier to take a taxi".
Markus Feilner
in reply to Eggs now in different baskets. • • •Eggs now in different baskets.
in reply to Markus Feilner • • •Markus Feilner
in reply to Eggs now in different baskets. • • •Eggs now in different baskets.
in reply to Markus Feilner • • •@mfeilner @chillicampari My Dutch is significantly better than my German but I understand that "toch" and "doch" are used in similar ways in their respective languages.
"Het regent buiten maar wij gaan toch de stadt in".
"Toch?".
🙃
tuban_muzuru
in reply to Eggs now in different baskets. • • •@the_wub @mfeilner @chillicampari
Doch carries the freight of contradiction.
tuban_muzuru
in reply to tuban_muzuru • • •@the_wub @mfeilner @chillicampari
I once used the word, walking home in the pouring rain, thinking it equivalent to the English "but" - and was roundly scolded for it, in English, I learned the contradiction bit on the fly.
Andy Linton 🇮🇪
in reply to Col • • •This phrase is part of the language in Aotearoa New Zealand.
theshout.co.nz/db-brings-back-…
DB brings back notorious Tui ‘Yeah right’ billboard - The Shout Magazine (New Zealand)
Charlotte Cowan (The Shout Magazine (New Zealand))HighlandLawyer
Unknown parent • • •How about the usage in Scottish or Irish English of "Is that you then?", which is asking a completely different question to the literal English words used.
lankohr
in reply to Col • • •Reminds me of an old programmer joke:
A wife sends her programmer husband to the grocery store for a loaf of bread...
On his way out she says "and if they have eggs, get a dozen". The programmer husband returns home with 12 loaves of bread and says: "They had eggs."
Sibrosan
in reply to lankohr • • •@lankohr
Is it purely a programmer joke or also a sexist one?
What about:
A man sends his programmer wife to the grocery store for a loaf of bread...
On her way out he says "and if they have eggs, get a dozen". The programmer wife returns home with 12 loaves of bread and says: "They had eggs."
lankohr
in reply to Sibrosan • • •Sibrosan
in reply to lankohr • • •@lankohr
I think it is, in general, not that simple.
A joke like this starts out with setting a scene that sounds familiar enough for people to easily picture in their mind.
The humorous element is in the unexpected turn of events in the punch line.
For most people, the gender role reversal in my version will be already somewhat unexpected, which interferes with the punch line effect.
TheSecondVariation
in reply to Col • • •Ben Curthoys
Unknown parent • • •@Lily_and_frog @eleder @jack @Wolf_Baginski
English used to have a 4 form system - Yes contradicts a negatively formulated question, No affirms it; Yea affirms a positively formulated question, Nay contradicts it.
Plan-A̵̛͈̬̥̿͋̓͛̕
in reply to Col • •lankohr
Unknown parent • • •HighlandLawyer
in reply to lankohr • • •"Repeat after me: 'an acre is the area of land whose length...' "
t60n3
in reply to Col • • •Hans Zelf 🇪🇺🌻
in reply to Col • • •echopapa
in reply to Col • • •Bavarian:
"Bei uns hod no nia ned koana koa Bia ned drunga!"
zynmaster
in reply to echopapa • • •@echopapa Im Ruhrpott so: *Ja, ja!* heißt "Leck mich am Ar*** ☝️
In the Ruhr area, we say "Yeah, yeah!" actually means "Kiss my ass" ☝️
@kibcol1049
diesUndDasMitTassen 🇺🇦
in reply to echopapa • • •@echopapa@social.tchncs.d "A Recht host. Schon weilst a Preis bist" (Austrian) 😅😂 "Your are right, simply because you're Prussian" - sounds positive but means that the other person is neither right nor will they be proved right, simply because they are German.
@kibcol1049
Petr Blažíček
in reply to Col • • •Ashwin Dixit
in reply to Col • • •diesUndDasMitTassen 🇺🇦
in reply to Col • • •In German it varies from case to case. Emphasis, gestures, facial expressions, comma placement, context, the personal relationship, geographical region or dialect and regional humour - all is playing a role.
"Ja ja" - "yeah yeah" / "yes yes" can be positive but just as easily negative.
Paavi (ei se paavi)
in reply to Col • • •Paavi (ei se paavi)
in reply to Paavi (ei se paavi) • • •lankohr
in reply to HighlandLawyer • • •HighlandLawyer
in reply to lankohr • • •@lankohr @AlexanderVI @EF @rzeta0
I believe the English term for Schwarze Pädagogik is "poisonous pedagogy", to avoid confusion with educational practices applied to African Americans.
But yes, the song (and surrounding material of the film) is explicit on that point.
Weekend Editor
in reply to Col • • •Actually happened.
The lecturer was the Oxford linguist JL Austin, giving a talk at Columbia. The smartass in the back of the room was, as always, philosopher Sidney Morgenbesser.
en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sidney_M…
Sidney Morgenbesser - Wikiquote
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)lankohr
in reply to HighlandLawyer • • •HighlandLawyer
in reply to lankohr • • •It's been part of the US culture wars for decades now, if not longer; the rest of the anglosphere just has to roll with it. As a German speaker you may consider it a US Gift for the world.