@mloxton I understand your concern, but my point isn't to condone or excuse abusive behavior. 😬 Rather, it's to acknowledge that de-escalation techniques can be effective in reducing tensions and promoting constructive dialogue, even in difficult situations. Matthew, active listening and empathy are tools to prevent and sedate conflict, not a replacement for accountability! 🙂

@benroyce

@LorenzoAncora
There are a ton of techniques that could be effective, but you are assuming that some large number of people have the spoons to do these techniques on the nearly half of the population trying hard to be as obnoxious as they can as a form of ingroup value signaling to their fellow fascists.

None of us are the calm, unemotional, and fully regulated clinicians that can do that. We are ALL overstressed and the best we can manage is to yell at Karens and say how shitty

@benroyce

@mloxton could you explain why are you using the term "fascist" here and now?
Seems out of place in this discussion about daily quarrels which can be easily handled with some common sense.

If you let your instincts control your mouth, if you label your interlocutor "fascist" or in any other libelious way, you'll never be able to achieve a serene and productive discussion.

In particular, yelling is a manifestation of verbal violence and the last thing you should do.

@benroyce

@LorenzoAncora
Because, Lorenzo, the "here" we are talking about is America, and the "now" is the midst of a fascist takeover and destruction of the society

What you are talking about is an ideal situation in an ideal environment with everyone but the "Karen" staying calm, using complex psychosocial de-escalation tools, and staying regulated in the face of a large chunk of the rest of the population eagerly throwing their aggression around and beating up on BIPoC and LGBTQ+ people

@benroyce

@mloxton America isn't the world. 😅
You are discussing with an Italian. We're literally the inventors of fascism.

No fascist is involved. Matthew, my people died, don't reuse the term for futile things.

---

Listening and questioning without yelling isn't complex. You only need basic self-control. If you fail, call the police, report any abuse and wait in silence if necessary.

@benroyce

@LorenzoAncora
As I said before, fuck off

@benroyce

@mloxton ...no.😉

@benroyce

@mloxton try to be humble. The only way to understand what the others really think is to listen.

If you can't listen, you'll never learn anything, you'll never understand people, you'll never have a peaceful life.

You have two ears but only one mouth after all.

@benroyce

Matthew's problem with your words here is you show care and concern for the aggressor in this situation, and not the victim. This renders your concerns and observations specious

Also: in the USA, the hyperaggressive entitlement in the video is pretty much Trump supporters. Matthew's connection makes sense to me as an American

But I have an honest and sincere question for you, not a troll or flame:

Why, when you watch this video, is your concern for the aggressor?

@CatDragon every human is different. Emotion is a wonderful form of intelligence, only more difficult to control. There is nothing wrong in being emotional.

Sometimes stressed people display arrogance as a defensive behaviour, but personal improvement requires healthy social relationships.
It's one of the ways the self-destructive spiral of isolation feeds off itself.

Show kindness to break the spiral and your interlocutor may stop seeing everything in a negative light. 🙂

@benroyce

@LorenzoAncora @CatDragon

why do you do this?

why do you speak in defense of a bully?

why do you frame aggressive behavior as something to explain, rather than condemn?

why do you use waffle words like "emotional" for what is clearly abuse?

why?

Would you call a newborn a bully? Of course not.
Her demeanour isn't innate, but acquired through a combination of overemotional temperament and hostile social environment.

Insulting her or condemning her won't make her a better person. She will remain a torn for society and you will keep feeling hatred.

However, in a kinder, safer, friendly social environment she wouldn't feel the need to bully. She would become a resource for society and you would find serenity.

@CatDragon

i can listen to every single one of your observations

i can agree with every single one of them

and none of them changes the fact we have an abuser, and a victim

and this is the most important observation, to say anything coherent on the topic

so why do you think you're saying anything useful on the topic by being unable to see, or selectively avoiding, the most important point on the topic?

I'm open to assist, could you please point at what you find incoherent? What were your expectations when I started discussing with you? What do you think my words lack?

@CatDragon

@LorenzoAncora @CatDragon

You're lacking nothing in your analysis of the reasons behind the abuser's behavior. I agree with every single one of them

If we were analyzing her behavior in a vacuum it would be a quality conversation

But you are failing to note that once the abuser commits an act of abuse, all of the care and concern you demonstrate should flow to the victim of the abuse. To continue to grant attention and concern for the abuser is counterproductive to your own stated concerns

when something dire happens, both the victim and the abuser need the same amount of attention, because both are at risk of becoming a burden to society: the victim must receive adequate help, compensation and protection; the abuser proportional punishment, sanctioning and rehabilitation in a healthy environment.

In this case, the victim handled everything well and apparently nothing noteworthy needs to be done, saving everyone's time.

Did I remember everyone this time? 🙂

@CatDragon

@LorenzoAncora @CatDragon

good. now go further

your analysis and concern before this comment began and ended with the abuser. all of your attention was on them

if you truly cared about fighting the problem you're concerned with, you would scope your analysis to include the victim up front. and you would conclude with consequences for the abuser for their unacceptable behavior, and care and concern for the victim in dealing with their abuse

this is the true path to solving the problem

in this context, what do you mean by "true path" and "solving the problem"?

@CatDragon

@LorenzoAncora @CatDragon

the world is trapped in a cycle of violence

the solution is not merely analyzing the psychology of those committing violence against others

in fact that's cut and dry and obvious

the solution is consequences for those committing violence

i don't think you're making excuses for them, but you're at that doorway. with where your attention is focused and the rationalizations you present

this is very sore for americans

because this mode of thought is why we have trump

the world goes beyond America: you're talking with an Italian, a sovereign country of the European Union. Healthcare and education are free, Trump isn't our president, guns are heavily regulated, verbal and physical aggressions are sanctioned, love is encouraged, differences are tolerated, Fascism and Nazism are history. 🙂

Studying and describing doesn't imply endorsement. 😅
I think punishments are OK ...if aimed at rehabilitation... but vendetta is always detrimental.

@CatDragon

@LorenzoAncora @CatDragon

i wasn't changing the topic, i was explaining why you're getting so much negativity, and why you think an absurd redirect to fascism isn't so absurd

people rationalizing an abuser, and ignoring victims, is our problem

in america

and your problem, in italy

the entire world

very simply:

in this little video, your focus, your attention, is all wrong

(and i don't think lesbians would take kindly to your description of how wonderful life in italy is under meloni)