Why do schools have dances? Why do many high schools host parties, sometimes inter-school parties at the school?
A school isn't just a machine that puts knowledge into people's brains, it's an organization of people. And those people will want to celebrate together from time to time. This WILL happen. "official" events can be more inclusive.
But also for young people it's a part of social education, providing some baseline for how you interact with other people.
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myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Schools dances, office holiday parties can be kind of corny and boring. So many people have input on what can and cannot be done that you might end up with a very limited and boring event.
But, these things are still very important (the office parties less so, I think)-- they have an "educational purpose"
And this is why schools need to come to grips with running social media intranets.
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myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Right now teens go off into the wild to find a place on social media and adults are rightly alarmed. Companies like Facebook, Instagram, X etc. have no interest in "modeling a healthy online environment" or "teaching young people to use social media constructively" -- instead everyone is acting like simply banning kids from using phones and scanning IDs will make social media go away.
No one is asking or answering the question: How and when will young people learn to use social media?
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Roger BW 😷
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I think that schools should take on this role.
You could have a server for a school with mastodon, but not connected to the rest of the fedi, you could network with similar schools. Just like at the school dance the teachers are around so there are limits to how it's used.
Teens could post about their soccer games, advertise their clubs, make jokes, practice using the medium wisely.
When teens post to social media they care about their friends at school seeing the post most. 4/
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myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I've had people hear this idea scoff saying "teens will never use it" I don't think this is true. They ALL come to the dances, even though they are "so boring" -- and I think at some level they would feel better having a safer place to express themselves in photos, videos and writing for each other without every creep on the internet looking in on it.
Will some teens still find internet "after parties" Yes.
But right now we are basically saying you can go to the afterparty or NOTHING.
5/5
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •What is more true is the adults don't want to bother to set it up.
Just like no one really wants to chaperone the dance.
But we have figured out that NOT having the dance is worse.
It will leave some kids locked out socially, others will create events that are too adult or unsafe.
We need to show them how it could work. Part of the obstacle to doing this is how few *adults* know how to use social media in a constructive way. So maybe we all need lessons.
Wyatt H Knott
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Wyatt H Knott • • •@Wyatt_H_Knott
Don't take blocking personally unless you were having a real conversation with the person and they felt the need to tell you why.
I think some people block me because I "post too much" -- and you know? That is fine. Because I do.
Wyatt H Knott
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •reading with a dog at my feet
in reply to Wyatt H Knott • • •I made some dismissive backhanded compliment because I didn't respect genre writing, and she was having none of that.
When the people you're interacting with have meaning to you beyond the Internet I think it's very good for building better social skills.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •As a teacher who is always looking out for kids who struggle with "socializing" the part about being shut out really bothers me.
When I was in HS internet was a secret world for a few dozen nerdy kids who knew about it. Now it's more like the socially savvy kids figure it out, and even manage to use it rather responsibly, but the kids who are more like I was... they have no idea what's going on or where to start and they are just left out.
That sucks.
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myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I mean the "secret club for nerds" was not great either but at least it wasn't concentrating social power in the hands of the already socially skilled and powerful.
But, that's what's going on now. Your shy socially awkward kid may at best find some kindred souls online, but at worst?
A chatbot may fill their head with nonsense or they will get preyed on by internet creeps.
And the later was already happening when I was young.
A school should at least set one good example.
Peppermint Solstice Faith
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •There's something in all this that's triggering to me at a pretty deep level and I'm not 100% sure what it is. I think it has something to do with control.
As someone who was manipulated from a young age and who was bullied by kids and adults alike, the Internet for me was a necessary escape. I needed not only to communicate through text but with people outside my community. I didn't really know it at the time but I also needed a place where things wouldn't get back to my parents.
Now I don't know all the social dynamics of how school kids are using social media and I'll readily admit it probably isn't healthy. If kids are getting treated okay in the halls where teachers are watching and then cyberbullied by their peers over lunch, that's bad. And the popularity contest that is IG pretty 😬.
But I'm not sure if social media being a direct extension of school is great, either. For the kids for whom what they say and do making it back to their community is a useful motivatior for good behavior, it may help. But for the kid who everyone has silently
... show moreThere's something in all this that's triggering to me at a pretty deep level and I'm not 100% sure what it is. I think it has something to do with control.
As someone who was manipulated from a young age and who was bullied by kids and adults alike, the Internet for me was a necessary escape. I needed not only to communicate through text but with people outside my community. I didn't really know it at the time but I also needed a place where things wouldn't get back to my parents.
Now I don't know all the social dynamics of how school kids are using social media and I'll readily admit it probably isn't healthy. If kids are getting treated okay in the halls where teachers are watching and then cyberbullied by their peers over lunch, that's bad. And the popularity contest that is IG pretty 😬.
But I'm not sure if social media being a direct extension of school is great, either. For the kids for whom what they say and do making it back to their community is a useful motivatior for good behavior, it may help. But for the kid who everyone has silently agreed it's okay to bully, it just extends that hell to their phone.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Peppermint Solstice Faith • • •@faithisleaping
I think that adults don't do anything about the bullying and have not created any way for students to say it is happening is the real failure.
And if kids want to use the wider internet they still can. I just think what we have now is by default exclusionary since only those kids with parents who help them use the internet, or those with parents who don't care know what's going on at all.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@faithisleaping
Beyond just not doing anything about bullies, the school system I went to treated *me* as the problem for 1) *being* bullied, 2) honestly expecting teachers to do their alleged job in stopping bullies, and 3) just generally not fitting in (*especially* because "fitting in" is what girls are "supposed to be" good at).
I half-wonder if some faculty secretly thinks bullying is a *good* thing that punishes misfits for them.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary • • •@pteryx @faithisleaping
"I half-wonder if some faculty secretly thinks bullying is a *good* thing that punishes misfits for them."
There are adults who think this. They are real and they are incorrect.
No, I can't make an outcast kid feel like they are a part of the class 100 percent. But, I can make them feel like they are just as valued as everyone else and deserve to be treated with respect.
Teens don't like it when you point out they are being a jerk. They will stop, or tone it down.
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myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@pteryx @faithisleaping
In fact, I've seen some pretty dramatic changes just from pointing out that "no one wants to be treated like that" and "you are being mean."
It's your job if you are the adult.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I'm pretty sure the majority of my own bullies knew damned well that they were being mean and no one would want to be treated the way I was; beyond merely not caring, they actively wanted to harm me specifically. There *was*, however, a minority who didn't actually *want* to bully me and was peer-pressured into it.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary • • •Oh the kids I've spoken to know what they are doing too. They do not like having it pointed out by an adult.
That the adults didn't do anything for you or acted like they couldn't is a failure on their part.
Kids will be mean on purpose because it can feel grown up and powerful. They see it in media, or they know an adult like that. They don't always think about the fallout fully.
But when another adult isn't impressed it's not so mature and worldly seeming anymore.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •At first, the teachers *did* scold the bullies... and that didn't work, which meant that the teachers got frustrated with my continuing to ask them to perform a futile task, which quite frankly had a lot to do with them starting to treat me as the problem for expecting them to do their jobs.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary • • •@faithisleaping
Of course, there were *also* attempts at deflection on the part of all the faculty I ever had to deal with (I went to a few different schools when I was very young):
"It's not 'bullying', it's just teasing. Calling it bullying if they don't hit you is not allowed."
...followed up with, "If they're teasing you, that must mean they like you! 😀 " (I had to learn the word "malicious" in second grade to stop that one.)
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary • • •Sensitive content
@faithisleaping
"Just ignore them." 'How?' "Pretend they're not there." 'How?'
"Remember, 'Sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me.'" — I WILL KILL EVERYONE YOU LOVE IN FRONT OF YOU AND THEN YOU, FACULTY SCUM
potentially hazardous object
in reply to Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary • • •potentially hazardous object
in reply to potentially hazardous object • • •@pteryx @faithisleaping TIL when they started spreading this lie in the 19th century (because when else do all our lies come from) it wasn't "words" but "names"
...when "adulteress" was right there
potentially hazardous object
in reply to potentially hazardous object • • •@faithisleaping @pteryx ::finally scrolls down to the bottom of the article::
....literally citing the Bible saying the exact opposite lmao
Tattie
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I'm seeing people in this thread who were let down so badly by their schools, and the trauma caused by that abandonment, that betrayal, is still so very real and present. I feel that, as another person with lifelong cPTSD caused by emotional abuse in the school environment.
(I refuse to even give it the respectable label of "bullying"-- it was calculated, intentional, repeated, emotional traumatisation.)
But I want to "pay forwards" to you my thanks for standing up to abuse, for stopping it happening where you have power.
Because throughout the hell that was secondary school, a tiny handful of teachers were willing and able to say "not in my classroom". I remember looking thru my diary and feeling the visceral relief that I had science that day, or English. For 55 blessed minutes, my nervous system could recover from the state of hypervigilance that I was spending every other hour of my day in.
I am not exaggerating when I call those teachers lifesavers.
@pteryx @faithisleaping
rk: it’s hyphen-minus actually
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@pteryx @faithisleaping
I had a teacher in high school ask the whole class at the beginning of the period to pray for me since I hadn’t let Jesus into my heart. Good times.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to rk: it’s hyphen-minus actually • • •@rk @pteryx @faithisleaping
That is wild.
And by wild I mean wrong.
I'm assuming this was all sincere?
rk: it’s hyphen-minus actually
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@pteryx @faithisleaping
Small town Texas in 1995 or 1996. Good times.
Sin Vega
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@pteryx @faithisleaping I've done this with strangers on the bus once, they'd been dumping on the one girl in the group for far too long and I just snapped at them
they got a BIT defensive but in a self-soothing way, and they did lay off her. Sure, teenagers often won't admit it when they realise they were being a dick. But they tend to reel it in, yeah
trachelipus
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I can say with 100% certainty my elementary school considered bullying to be a necessary social skill. It was like they were grooming us to work for or marry into the Ewing family.
Mx. Luna Corbden 🐸
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@pteryx @faithisleaping My first bully was in first grade, my teacher. She set me up as a target for other bullies. She did the same thing with a couple of other "gifted" or neurodivergent kids in class with doing extreme psychological othering. This would have been the late 1970s. She definitely encouraged the peer-bullying that followed her example. School admin sided with her. I blocked most of my memories from that year, and it set me up with a lifetime of feeling excluded.
Contrawise, my third grade teacher did the opposite. Said I could come in from recess to read instead, any time I wanted. She also (privately) called me out one time when I participated in bullying another girl. Gave me a lecture about empathy and not joining in, that stuck with me.
Emile Snyder
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Richard W. Woodley ELBOWS UP 🇨🇦🌹🚴♂️📷 🗺️
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@faithisleaping
And then there is the zero tolerance attitude that says fighting back against a bully is just as bad as bullying someone.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Richard W. Woodley ELBOWS UP 🇨🇦🌹🚴♂️📷 🗺️ • • •@the5thColumnist @faithisleaping
"zero tolerance" = "too lazy to figure out what the heck is really going on"
I've been in a few cases where I didn't have enough information to say "who started it" and in those cases I'd tell the students this frankly, but making it clear that if I did know it would matter.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •R
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •i see the "socialization" goal you're describing, but i don't think schools should be doing it, and *especially* not an _american_ school
to start with your example of dances, parties, sportsball, and clubs, all of these activities feel like they *deeply* bake in assumptions of "you are already expected and assumed to be familiar ahead of time with typical generic american high school culture". when i was in high school, i "knew" that such activities were happening (in the "they get listed in the daily bulletin" sense), but i never had *any* context on why i would or should even care (and certainly never attended any). i've been noticing that this seems to be a really pervasive problem: "generic american culture" is so widely disseminated and exported especially in mass media that there's almost *never* even a *consideration* for "what if you're just... not plugged in to any of those channels?". this might be finally coming to a head (in a "bad" way) as consensus on the media landscape has started breaking hard in the past few years
in general, i'm entirely a proponent
... show morei see the "socialization" goal you're describing, but i don't think schools should be doing it, and *especially* not an _american_ school
to start with your example of dances, parties, sportsball, and clubs, all of these activities feel like they *deeply* bake in assumptions of "you are already expected and assumed to be familiar ahead of time with typical generic american high school culture". when i was in high school, i "knew" that such activities were happening (in the "they get listed in the daily bulletin" sense), but i never had *any* context on why i would or should even care (and certainly never attended any). i've been noticing that this seems to be a really pervasive problem: "generic american culture" is so widely disseminated and exported especially in mass media that there's almost *never* even a *consideration* for "what if you're just... not plugged in to any of those channels?". this might be finally coming to a head (in a "bad" way) as consensus on the media landscape has started breaking hard in the past few years
in general, i'm entirely a proponent of the approach of "you are allowed to explore, discover, and take your own risks, even dangerous risks, as long as you understand that you won't be (as) protected if you do so. hopefully 'we' (as in, society) will provide some ways to talk about what happens (although this doesn't always work)", which feels most similar to the approach i grew up with and the way i personally understood the ideals of the 2000s-2010s internet. i don't see schools, where attendance is (approximately) compulsory, as a good environment for this type of discovery. (fwiw the vibe i got from my own high school was that they _firmly_ washed their hands of anything to do with social media, unsanctioned unofficial events, and generally anything not *clearly* part of their legal responsibilities)
Sepideh
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •When I was in high school, it was a nerdy high school so we had several people running their own Linux servers.
On the Linux servers, we were writing interactive fiction on one particular BBS board. I kept inserting a particular boyfriend who did not want to be in the fiction, and he would immediately add the next chapter to the story killing his own character off because he did not want to be in the story.
There was one student who posted "I am bisexual" to all the boards.
regular violet
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •For me, the Internet went from the only place I was comfortable in high school to just another social nightmare in the last 10 years. I have wondered what it's like for kids today.
It doesn't seem like there's any niche place to express themselves without the threat of bullying at all.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to regular violet • • •@thecrushedviolet
They have carved out little spaces on tumblr and instagram.
But they also use discord and things like that a lot.
Discord kind of scares me because who knows what's going on in there? I hope that the older students take to heart our lessons about setting boundaries and asking for help.
But this isn't a new problem, it's always been part of growing up.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@thecrushedviolet
At least you recognize bullying as a serious problem at all.
As for learning about setting boundaries and asking for help... quite frankly, the lesson I took away from how the faculty treated me at school is that authority figures will do anything, *ANYTHING*, to minimize their own workload, and therefore asking appointed or self-selected authority figures for help is not just futile, but potentially counterproductive as they turn on you.
A Flock of Beagles
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •nevermind adults not knowing how to use social media, most people don't know how to set up and manage a server of any kind.
i don't know what teachers and school kids know about computers and how to connect them these days, but in my days in public school, the kids barely knew what a floppy disc is, and the teachers were afraid of computers. they wouldn't let you plug in a keyboard that became disconnected, they would insist on calling a technician, and no one actually had that role as far as i could tell. they had been maybe trained on how to do various software tasks but if something wasn't working they were absolutely lost.
they were definitely not going to be teaching us anything they didn't know, and they weren't going to suggest a project where we all learn together because that would break the student-teacher hierarchy. many of the teachers in my high school were not at all secure in their ability to teach the subjects they taught. in my later years, i met someone outside of school who was a math major, and who ended being a TA for one of the math teachers at my
... show morenevermind adults not knowing how to use social media, most people don't know how to set up and manage a server of any kind.
i don't know what teachers and school kids know about computers and how to connect them these days, but in my days in public school, the kids barely knew what a floppy disc is, and the teachers were afraid of computers. they wouldn't let you plug in a keyboard that became disconnected, they would insist on calling a technician, and no one actually had that role as far as i could tell. they had been maybe trained on how to do various software tasks but if something wasn't working they were absolutely lost.
they were definitely not going to be teaching us anything they didn't know, and they weren't going to suggest a project where we all learn together because that would break the student-teacher hierarchy. many of the teachers in my high school were not at all secure in their ability to teach the subjects they taught. in my later years, i met someone outside of school who was a math major, and who ended being a TA for one of the math teachers at my school. no joke, he told me that the teacher he was assigned to told him to "do the homework to make sure you know how to do it". a high school math teacher said that to a person with a degree in math. we also had gym teachers teaching English, and other weird misassignments of skill and knowledge.
SeanBurlington 🌈 🕊️
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •during lockdown I reached out to school to see if I could help with IT
They didn't take up my offer - but what I learned through the process is that schools have less than minimal IT support , there is no IT manager, in house support person, purchasing officer - nothing.
Schools and Youth groups need better funding, till then kids are at the mercy of the evil corporations
Daniel M. Reck
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •This is a fascinating idea and you've used an excellent social education metaphor in the school dance.
The great roadblock I anticipate would need to be overcome would be the legal liability, followed by the political and moral panic.
I was about to say no one freaks out about teaching math—but yeah, they do. Folks definitely freak out *more* when educators teach social skills or anything bordering on someone's idea of morality. This'd allow students to express themselves. Oh no!
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Daniel M. Reck • • •@DanielMReck
I would think hosting dances would have a lot more "liabilities"
Daniel M. Reck
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •That's because you're sensible.
Dances do not typically create a perfect digital record of everything that happens at them, and social media platforms typically do. That's great for people investigating actual wrongdoing, but it also makes a gold mine of innocent content to be used by profit-seeking lawyers and disingenuous adults to intimidate, harass, and legally destroy whatever school tried to implement such a platform.
There's also those generally-ignored child privacy laws.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Daniel M. Reck • • •@DanielMReck
The school email, gchat, google classroom and websites already do that.
Daniel M. Reck
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Good point.
I may have made an incorrect assumption that you were proposing that a school homegrow or otherwise implement its own social media platform...like a Mastodon instance.
The services you identified are all provided by third parties under contract with the school. That contract provides obligations for those parties to assure FERPA-protected and other private data is kept safe. This provides a certain indemnity under the reasonable actor standard. (At least where I work.)
Chris [list of emoji]
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •The most efficient way to do this is to have a centralized organization to do this. This shares the costs of IT across every school that needs it. A school would contract them out to set up an instance and provide mod privileges to the teachers willing to do this.
The org could also do other cloud services (email, wiki, owncloud, etc) as an alternative to MS or Google.
And then, SV capital could buy the org and sell students' data to advertisers
Thanasis Kinias
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Grant_H
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •They weren't interested. They wanted to be where everyone else is (IG) above all. I asked them who was going to start the "new thing" if not them, but they didn't want to put in the effort.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Grant_H • • •@grant_h
When it's just one teacher saying "set up this thing" it just sounds like more work.
You need to get the admins on board.
Make it the place where the scores from the sports teams are announced, where the vote totals from the elections are posted, that is make it part of the school and they'll care about it.
My students love the idea, it's the admins and other teachers who I can't get excited.
Grant_H
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •They just had to post the content.
potentially hazardous object
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@grant_h did the adults themselves express interest in using it, including using it themselves and not infrequently showing interesting things on it?
and were things other than pixelfed considered? (i still do not see anything pixelfed can do that multiple other fedi platforms don't do better)
myrmepropagandist
in reply to potentially hazardous object • • •I haven't gotten as far as talking about software yet. Though I'm starting to think the way to sell them on this is to point out how much more elegant it would be than our current school electronic communication which is basically everyone spams everyone with email all the time.
Every club, team, department, etc. is just posting stuff to these horrible listserves like it's usenet and there are no forums. Just one big forum.
This would be a way to tame the chaos.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@apophis @grant_h
Today, on a sunday I have 130 school email notifications and all of them are from the listservs and I need to open most of them and look to see what it is.
OK I'll open like half of them.
But it's a mess.
Nonetheless we are already a school where students and teachers do mass digital communication in the community all the time.
Grant_H
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Here (South Africa) there are a coue of dedicated school comms packages.
Privacy is also a thing - parents with access to teachers private phone num ers is a big no at my school, which I appreciate. Also, email has an auditable trail, not something most social media platorms have.
Grant_H
in reply to Grant_H • • •During covid, we set up (in house) Woocommerce sites so the matrics could do their fundraising bake sales, etc. Worked really well - but they had the motivation.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Grant_H • • •@grant_h
That said? I feel like this is coming. It may take like a decade but schools will figure it out.
The most ugly school social media problems happen when students have an "unofficial official" network and no one knows about it but some mean girls/guys.
Grant_H
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •potentially hazardous object
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Darkly? I think the big social media companies do not really want young people to be "empowered digital citizens" or "people who can set boundaries, and make wise choices about the online spaces they participate in"
They want them to be like many adults, kind of helpless and unable to look away from a kind of social media that makes their mental health worse while wasting their time and selling them garbage.
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Sassinake! - ⊃∪∩⪽
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •just had a flash that 'I am addicted to the internet'.
but it will pass, let me just scrol
Canageek
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Orion Ussner kidder
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Graeme Hilton
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •A mastodon instance per year group could be a nice alternative. But they already have a school provided "social media" which is strictly moderated - maybe too strictly.
Jeff "Never puts the Oven Mitts away" Cliff, B.Sc.
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •> They ALL come to the dances
I didn't. Most dances I absolutely refused to participate in, and the one or two that I didn't I mostly stayed on the bleachers away from everyone.
And of course the one that I *did* go to someone wound up getting seriously injured / (killed?). So there was that.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Jeff "Never puts the Oven Mitts away" Cliff, B.Sc. • • •@jeffcliff
I guess I'm an unlikely champion of the school dance considering I hated the whole concept as a kid, only went to one under duress (it was too loud) and never went again.
I get a different perspective as a teacher and hope that we've encouraged something better than what I was exposed to when I was younger (which to be fair wasn't as bad as it could have been, even in 1997 I somehow was at a school that didn't mandate )
That all of the students show up I take as a good sign.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@jeffcliff
My mom and dad, experienced a very different kind of school dance in the 1960s. It was very focused on straight dating cosplay I guess?
There were a billion rules about buying flowers for a girl and if you could pick her up in your horrible car.
These things evolve.
That said. I liked knowing I COULD go to the school dance and not going more than I'd like if all the parties were the kind where I wouldn't be invited.
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@stevewfolds
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Ballroom dance was an extra in 1961, taught in the junior high school’s gym. A community center held “canteens” Saturday nights in Summer. Dancing cheek to cheek at 13.
pejacoby
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •so much THIS!
*but* you have to get the ADULTS to not be the idiots in the room. 6 or 7 years ago our local charter school had a Facebook group, and the kids did NOT interact with it because there were one or two adults absolutely sucking ALL the oxygen out of the room with their bad takes and frankly 12-year-old behavior, modeling the worst of the worst to the student population.
This was before the current-day miasma that is FB and others, sadly predictive of current state…
Zulkiers
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I never made it to a single dance. Not even prom.
Bjørn Stærk
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •yes! i've been thinking a lot about a related question:
now that more and more of our world is experienced through personal devices like smartphones and laptops, how do we gradually include children and youths in our adult world?
for instance: growing up there were newspapers on our table every day, and LP's on the shelf. pieces of a larger shared reality it was possible to learn from.
and then, of course, perhaps reject - but after at least exploring it for a bit.
Bjørn Stærk
in reply to Bjørn Stærk • • •our role as adults is to invite the kids into our world in a gentle way, show them around a bit, introduce them to our reality.
and i think that takes more intentional effort now than it used to.
because the effortless default now is just: hand them a device, let them figure it all out themselves from scratch. and then tell them off for making the wrong choice.
utopiArte likes this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I want to thank some of you for your comments on this post that have made me realize a few things:
1. When talking about "social media intranets for teens" I need to make it clear I'm NOT talking about anonymous networks. Just like with school email it's one account per person.
2. I should probably define the difference between internet and intranet as well.
3. I'm going to hear "can't do it legal reasons*" over and over and should be ready with the big guns for THAT one.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •* It's something you pick up if you work in a big organization. Even the most innocent seeming ideas can be shot down for "legal reasons" --I think it can be very counterproductive to internalize this notion if you aren't a lawyer. Let the lawyers raise the "legal reasons" ... we don't live in some kind of paralyzed time when nothing can be done.
If "field trips" didn't exist I'm certian the first person to propose them would hear "can't go on a trip for legal reasons"
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •And, using the field trip example again, there *are* legal implications to taking students on a trip. That's why we have permission slips.
Legal reasons are surmountable if you are doing something reasonable.
Don't abandon your idea before you even try it because thinking about the "legal implications" is complex.
In the case of having a student intranet I think there are basically ZERO legal implications since everything the network would do already exists in a school.
kechpaja
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •If the students have school email addresses, it's hard to imagine an intranet social network creating additional legal implications.
(And besides, if more than one school did it, they could pool resources to get an actual lawyer to look at what they were doing and ensure compliance with relevent liability standards.)
IANAL, of course.
pandabutter
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •pandabutter
in reply to pandabutter • • •There's a lesson here applicable to many other things: we went so all-in on the internet, we've basically forgotten how to do anything else. Internet connectivity is the default assumption for anything with a computer in it. This is, to be blunt, *very silly.*
pandabutter
in reply to pandabutter • • •It baffles me that in the past 30 years, nobody has stopped and said "Maybe not every device should be accessible from literally every other device. That's pointless."
A Flock of Beagles
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Sarcasm is all I have Left
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •A lawyer friend of mine once informed me that anyone, anywhere can sue you no matter how carefully you set up to avoid being sued or how diligently you avoid doing things for "legal reasons."
He advised, instead, being consistent across policies, following the policies, and paying attention to guidelines provided by licensing organizations. Otherwise, get creative (his words, not mine).
Sin Vega
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Howard Cohen
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Brad Macpherson
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •zvavybir
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Sensitive content
Wow, this thread screams "Was never bullied" (of course I don't if you actually weren't, but it doesn't sound like it)… We must have had radically different experiences (although I don't know which direction is worse) if you really think "every creep on the internet looking in on it" is the main threat and not that the people you're forced on threat of state violence to spend 6+ hours with every day for years will make your life living hell when the way you "express yourself" strays even a bit out of societal norms.
Also, if you're concerned with not excluding the socially awkward kid you'd have to disable the block feature, because otherwise they will just get blocked by most people except those "kindred spirits" you don't care about.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to zvavybir • • •Sensitive content
@zvavybir
Are you saying it's better not to have such a network?
You are very incorrect about my experience with bullying.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Sensitive content
@zvavybir
I get into this a bit more in this part of the thread:
sauropods.win/@futurebird/1157…
myrmepropagandist
2025-12-14 14:25:30
zvavybir
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Sensitive content
I'm sorry that you were bullied.
From an anti-bullying perspective, it might be not actively harmful to have such a network as long as it is not becoming (legally or de facto) mandatory. From a privacy perspective I have my doubts, although I would need to think more about it to say whether that would be a reason against it.¹ From a youth liberation perspective, I think kids are already surveilled and controlled by their parents and school enough, so I don't really jump in excitement at a new way to do such. Also I worry that such a network causes kids to join non-censored social media only later, hindering their ability to seek out (or chances to stumble upon) important information for them.
Re your other reply: Thanks for the link, but I read the entire discussion your original post spawned (including your thread) before sending my first reply already, so that doesn't give any new arguments.
(¹ What I can say though is that the idea of permission slips is (mostly) useless, in the same way how (nearly) noone actually doesn't get one for going on a school trip (and for those it's (I think at least, but I don't have data on that) just their parents being controlling, not actually for their safety.). After all, even I – Mr. So-Obsessed-With-Privacy-That-He-Gives-Himselfs-Two-Anxiety-Disorders (I wasn't out as genderfluid at the time, so therefore the misgendering) – did sign one for being able to use my arch-nemesis M365 in school.)
caffetino
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to caffetino • • •@caffetino
"But imagine the tech team and the moderation needed"
They already use email, put up fliers, and do many things with communication that schools have ways to manage.
"Moderation" starts in the classroom. My students know how I expect them to treat each other. If anything it would be easier than some of the "she said x" but I didn't HEAR her say it so it's harder to be fair I deal with already.
But, mostly, the social media will just reflect the existing school culture.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •@caffetino
If your school culture is mostly right and you don't have many problems with bullying you won't see it in the online space.
If there is a problem it seems like the problem needs to be addressed at the root. In the classroom and halls.
Kaleissin
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Shar(yna)Tran/Shark(aeopteryx)
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •This is somewhere I really think what they're doing at the Bonfire project could really shine! Especially since there's account data migration so after they leave they still get to bring their memories with them.
(preemptive link for anyone who happens across this who doesn't know: bonfirenetworks.org/app/social… )
Bonfire
bonfirenetworks.orgColesStreetPothole
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Bill Seitz
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Bill Seitz • • •@billseitz
Teachers, as we always do for any school activity. Same rules.
But there could also be some work for student government. (we have student government make the dress code and this works well)
GothGardener
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Hippasus500 aka jwn2
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •This is a wonderful idea, except for the “not connected” part.
Many secondary schools have introductory computer science programs. Students could gain practical experience in sysadministration, gain valuable experience in moderation and social responsibility, serve the schools wider community, and popularize the model of a federated social media.
A lot ^could^ go wrong, I know. But if we wish to have an educated citizenry, this would be a way.
Micha Baum
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Gibt es Erfahrungen oder Gründe die gegen einen schulinternen Mastodon-Server sprechen?
Daniel Lakeland
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •My impression is that Bonfire would be a great way to go, and that remaining federated would be OK if the moderation team was good.
I'd love to do this for Pasadena unified, and I think I could probably partner with Pasadena education foundation to do it not as a school thing but as a foundation thing the school could promote. moderation could be teachers and parents like PTA members... maybe I'll look into this in the new year? it goes along with the library stuff ive been doing...
eswillwalker
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to eswillwalker • • •@ELS
Schools have email and this isn't an issue? What new liabilities would be raised?
eswillwalker
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to eswillwalker • • •@ELS
I don't really see the point of having an anonymous network inside of a school. Hadn't even thought of doing that.
eswillwalker
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to eswillwalker • • •@ELS
School email is just regular email although out-of-school incoming mail is blocked by a whitelist that includes parents and a few others.
No "anonymous" accounts is part of the "boring school party" aspect.
Mark Whybird
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist reshared this.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Mark Whybird • • •@whybird
That policy sounds like the adults are just plugging their ears.
Daniel Lakeland
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Francisco
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •geolaw
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Michael Bacon
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •aburtch
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •The Social Institute | Giving Students Life Skills for the Modern Day
The Social InstituteCynthesisToday
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •A friend had a very intelligent way of doing this, I thought:
Starting with texting, he made clear (and followed through) that he would be able to see and review every text sent/received from first receipt of phone (end of elementary school) to age 16. Same with social media. They had a regular time to review and discuss.
It also gave them a language and space to talk about pretty much any growing up topics, too.
ColesStreetPothole
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Rachel Rawlings
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •My high school had a BBS that was run by students who had already been on other BBSes, with a faculty advisor, but became a lot of people's first experience online.
We put it together with an Apple ][ and a 10MB Sider drive that lived in a locked carrel in the gifted room.
Bram Moreinis
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •gbsills
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •lizzard
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Jeremy Kahn
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •OMG I have a 13 yo now and he's a great kid and he loves his school and community
It would be so great for him and his friends to have a loosely supervised social media account run through his moderately sized school (200 5th-8th graders)
CubeOfCheese
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •A-Ho-Ho-Ho-aly BSC SSC
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •In my 20's I worked as Youth Worker, Social Worker and managed several children's centres.
The social education of young people was at the core of everything we did. It worked, so much that I did on occasion run into some of those young people as adults and not only did they remember me... but did so fondly, recounting some of the great memories they had where I worked.
I had a rule where, I wouldn't let kids win a basic games just for the sake of them winning. I challenged them to do better, to think ahead, plan ahead... I wasn't mean or condescending and I would often give ample opportunity for them to see the errors they were about to make... I never gloated, I always congratulated them on a good game.
One of the best memories I have is playing a simple game of Connect 4 with one of the kids... He'd been coming to the after school and holiday clubs for several years. He loved connect 4... but could never beat me... Until he did... at the age of about 10yrs old and after several years of trying.
The look of sheer joy on his face is one I will never forget
... show moreIn my 20's I worked as Youth Worker, Social Worker and managed several children's centres.
The social education of young people was at the core of everything we did. It worked, so much that I did on occasion run into some of those young people as adults and not only did they remember me... but did so fondly, recounting some of the great memories they had where I worked.
I had a rule where, I wouldn't let kids win a basic games just for the sake of them winning. I challenged them to do better, to think ahead, plan ahead... I wasn't mean or condescending and I would often give ample opportunity for them to see the errors they were about to make... I never gloated, I always congratulated them on a good game.
One of the best memories I have is playing a simple game of Connect 4 with one of the kids... He'd been coming to the after school and holiday clubs for several years. He loved connect 4... but could never beat me... Until he did... at the age of about 10yrs old and after several years of trying.
The look of sheer joy on his face is one I will never forget... talk about a core memory... for both of us. He was celebrating his victory, not in a mocking or condescending way... just pure joy at his achievement beating a far better player.
He was telling everyone, he was the first kid to beat me. When his mum arrived to pick him up it was the first thing he ran up to tell her... and he was giddy with joy.
I ran into him about 15yrs later by chance... When we realised who he was... guess what his first memory of our interactions was... He still beamed with joy recall his win.
I'm a great believer in social education, and I miss those roles I had, helping to shape young minds... But the money was garbage and I didn't want to live in poverty forever... so as I approached 30, I went and got a better paid boring office job for the next 25yrs.
myrmepropagandist reshared this.
Abie
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •A party for all the families with games and cake in primary school, with maybe a school play.
Nothing beyond "bring cake to the last period of the semester/year" if the teacher is cool with it after that.
I don't think I would have gone to a school ball voluntarily.
plan-A
in reply to myrmepropagandist • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to plan-A • • •@zer0unplanned
Just a school? In this case "High School" the last four years before a kid will graduate and maybe go to college or start a job.
So school for kids age 14-18 years old?
I don't know if I understood your question.
like this
plan-A and Bitslingers-R-Us like this.
plan-A
in reply to myrmepropagandist • •myrmepropagandist likes this.
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •It's possible that the disconnect is not taking for granted (or perhaps even grasping) the concept of a large, organized school. There are cultures that *don't* herd all their children into big, compulsory educational institutions together.
Three plus or minus five
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I actually ... don't hate this. Supervision (i.e. moderation) is an issue, but assumably could be done similarly to sports or clubs (putting yet more burden on overworked teachers, but that's another issue.
(But also too: school dances and sporting events and yearbooks all had the express purpose of showing me just how excluded I was from the community. Same will happen with this.)
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Three plus or minus five • • •@ThreeSigma
(But also too: school dances and sporting events and yearbooks all had the express purpose of showing me just how excluded I was from the community. Same will happen with this.)
That's how I felt about them too. I didn't attend my school's prom, for example.
But I think I would have liked it even less if it was one of those events I wasn't even invited to. (which also existed and only looking back can I see how obnoxious it was that the kids who went had to let me know)
Three plus or minus five
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Let me validate your choice: I went and really really wish I hadn't.
But yeah, your point is taken. And sometimes there's a quiet kid who can write like an angel and has the most interesting thoughts. Maybe they'd share.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Three plus or minus five • • •@ThreeSigma
There was this 1950 style soda fountain where I grew up and it was a big deal to go there for milkshakes on friday's
The entire class except for me and the other two unpopular girls would go.
Very obnoxious. Though that was middle school.
Hypolite Petovan
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Hypolite Petovan • • •@hypolite
How do French teens have social events? Clubs? Church? Just small things with friends?
Hypolite Petovan
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Hypolite Petovan • • •@hypolite
I'm trying to think if there is something other than the school that could provide some pretext of "neutral ground" to serve as the place for youth social media... though I don't know much about France so it is kind of beyond me.
In the US schools take on a LOT of this role as it is. If it's not the schools it's the church... (I would take the schools...)
Hypolite Petovan
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Cassandrich
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Cassandrich • • •@dalias
Oh that gets in the mix too. But not in the NYC city schools.
They don't really do much "romantic" dancing. They just eat all the snacks and argue about what music to play then dance in a circle.
Which is fine.
Cassandrich
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •myrmepropagandist
in reply to Cassandrich • • •@dalias
There are always a few gay prom dates, but also sometimes friends will go together and it's not romantic.
There are also lots of girls and guys who will go to prom together and that's common but not mandatory.
The seniors are mostly interested in getting very cute photos with the backdrops they spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME making and they make a huge mess.
Anyway.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Cassandrich • • •@dalias
I guess it will vary by school. Obviously.
Pomegranate_Stew
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •I realize this isn’t about the social aspect, but I do wish that the music at dances wasn’t at literally deafening levels. I’m fairly certain a good percentage of my hearing loss is from attending high school dances where my ears were left ringing afterwards. My two kids who attended one during their middle school years both refused to go to a second one because the decibel level was painful for them.
We don’t need to harm kids’ hearing for them to have a good time together.
myrmepropagandist
in reply to Pomegranate_Stew • • •Yeah I never got that. The kids at the school where I work don't like loud music but it's a very nerdy school.
I think some people like it for some reason, though. Extroverts need to be studied.
Pomegranate_Stew
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •> Extroverts need to be studied.
Definitely! 😂
Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary
in reply to Pomegranate_Stew • • •@pomegranate_stew Heck, extroverts need to stop being treated as "normal" and introverts need to stop being treated as "broken".
Really, the entire idea that there is only one "right" way to be and that way is whatever cluster of common traits is most convenient for those who would want to control people (parents, teachers, bosses, politicians, etc.) needs to be thrown in the wastebin of history.
millennial fulcrum
in reply to Pteryx the Puzzle Secretary • • •Kostek Poland
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •mizblueprint
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •Pickle Rick
in reply to myrmepropagandist • • •