When people say "Free Palestine" ask them what exactly that means, and most Palestinians will unfortunately say it means the destruction of Israel, and Palestinians ruling the entire region, with Jews either under their rule, or gone.
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the current state isn't morally justifiable and it would be morally justified in replacing it completely with a different one that is not an ethnostate but two state I think for decades people think is the best idea that's conceivably doable.
its tricky to describe, you have a palestinian state and a jewish state and there are rules that preserve it but you can't in most cases move out a ton of people so there has to be representation for the other group.
the illegal settlements ruin all this though in every way.
the most uncharitable interpretation of abolishing the discriminatory ethnostate is "kick out jews" which is not what reasonable people mean when they say that (some people obviously do though for various reasons, including fatigue from decades of horrific treatment)
but you pretty much have to do that to fix the settlements.
so like the israeli government forced it so your choices are let them erase palestinians unhindered or you're kicking out a bunch of jews anyway why not kick them all out under the same moral premise.
I'm not accepting any of this but I am pretty sure this was intentional and israel is betting people will side with the status quo
A colony is when foreigners exert power over your country and extract its resources. Israel isn't a colony; it's just where Jews live now. (And they had lived there before but that's not relevant either way IMO.)
Originally Palestine was under british mandate and reluctantly let jews into it, but then zionist militias radicalized, got armed by the soviet union, and fucked over the brits and the arab palestinians. Technically they were anti-colonial terrorists that overtook some institutions of british colonialism. It's like when you hop into an MMORPG and see the unemployed beat some elder dragon or something and then you drop by out of nowhere for the last hit and get all the rare loot out of it
To be fair to the Zionists of that period, if some of the planet's major forces had just tried to wipe me out completely, I'd also be radicalised and fight to create a little space for myself to be safe in.
Despite what many anti-Zionists say, I don't think the founding of Israel had to do with Jewish supremacism or religious zealotry nearly as much as "ok, we really need a country for ourselves, to survive."
the pre-foundation zionist movement and the exact details of the foundation and maintenance of the state of israel are not exactly the same thing and often not even the same people.
so is any meaningful advancement in palestinian sovereignty without concessions to Israel, but considering that the Likud has a major nerf for coming elections now, considering the Haaretz reports of Netanjahu having known about the october 7th attack beforehand Israeli workers could grow more antagonistic towards military service
Israel has zero interest in letting that happen and it would result in a civil war even if they did since the west bank has over 200k settlers all over at this point
the settlements are working exactly as planned. abolishing the entire state was unthinkable but they made it so you essentially have to do that anyway to get any justice at all with the settlements and the hope is now people will just do the math and let israel finish the job
After Oct 7 it's impossible anyway, but over the decades Israel has been a lot more open to the idea of a peaceful two state solution and willing to accept compromise.
It's sadly generally been rejected by the broad population of Arabs/Muslims, due to Islamic and Arab-supremacist mythology.
Mixed into that is also some anti-imperialist mythology, where Israel is seen as "evil westerners taking our land" despite Jews being indigenous to the region and a large portion of Israel's population consisting of Jews who moved there from neighbouring Muslim countries in which they were less safe.
Western leftists, being stupid about Islam, have chosen to pretend as if the main reason isn't just religious zealotry and antisemitism of Muslims, and have instead focused purely on the anti-imperialist myth, which to be fair is at least a half-truth given that Israel is allies with "the west."
If only there were people not interested in being cannon fodder for Hamas / Iran or the IDF. But no, Israel doesn't have class struggle, they're all hopeless lunatics so sad
I learned a lot more about why palestinians voted in hamas and at this point I am pretty sure it was because at the time palestinian authority was totally corrupt and totally a tool of israel and they were trying to get out from under that, not hamas exterminationist founding beliefs. but of course those came along for the ride.
@Blurry Moon @amenome @Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat) @Dagda In the 1970s and 1980s, Israel did provide funding and tacit support to the Muslim Brotherhood network in Gaza (the precursor to Hamas) as a counterweight to the PLO and Fatah. Israel's goal was to weaken Fatah's dominance and divide Palestinian politics, not to have Hamas win an election against the PLO. The strategy backfired en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_… log in walled > theintercept.com/2018/02/19/ha…
As far as I can tell Mehdi Hasan is just an insane ideologue. And Wikipedia is just the mouthpiece of insane ideologues when it comes to "leftist causes."
I can take these conspiracy theories about as seriously as "Jews did 9/11."
@Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat) @Blurry Moon @amenome @Dagda Maybe learn to read a page..? click references or scroll down and 1st one you'll see is an article of The Times of Israel with 79 other sources you can check> argue them, not me. I'm mostly not in the mood to with pro Zionist people. And correct me if I'm wrong about this because you seem so in denial about truth and than you bring up leftist's.. . Was I talking about left or right? So talking with you has not any sense.
> Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products. Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
So, if Israel allows Gazans to do conduct business, it means Israel supports Hamas.
If Israel didn't allow Gazans to conduct business, it would be accused of starving Gazans to death by denying them the fundamental human right to work and earn money.
Whatever Israel does, insane ideologues will find some way to paint it as an evil act of genocidal intent. The fact this kind of drivel is published by The Times of Israel is not proof that it's a solid critique of Israel; it's just proof that Israel is a pluralistic society with a free press, that allows its independent journalists to criticize their own government in even the most illogical ways. (Meanwhile, try to publicly criticize Hamas in Gaza...)
They really don't want that. They prefer to keep waging war.
I'm generalizing and there's of course those who would accept it, but the overall sentiment in their society, which has also been reflected in election results (choosing Hamas) is that they'd rather die than allow Israel to exist. It's an incredibly frustrating situation.
@Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat) @Blurry Moon @amenome That is not correct, they rather die yes but they were colonized and they never strived to destroy Israel, rather equal rights. Also, the idea of that Colonization from Europe was a bad idea, to get rid of Jews in EU they had to make this Zionist state with help of the Rothshields. Non Jews, went there as well to flee communism back at that era in Eastern EU. Bibi is Polish.
Blurry Moon
in reply to amenome • • •Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat)
in reply to Blurry Moon • • •When people say "Free Palestine" ask them what exactly that means, and most Palestinians will unfortunately say it means the destruction of Israel, and Palestinians ruling the entire region, with Jews either under their rule, or gone.
Would strongly recommend watching some of the videos here:
youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAs…
Corey Gil-Shuster
YouTubeBlurry Moon
in reply to Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat) • • •subnettie
in reply to Blurry Moon • • •Blurry Moon
in reply to subnettie • • •Fall smell is leaf mold 🍁
in reply to Blurry Moon • • •Blurry Moon
in reply to Fall smell is leaf mold 🍁 • • •pettanko ✝️
in reply to Blurry Moon • • •Blurry Moon
in reply to pettanko ✝️ • • •its tricky to describe, you have a palestinian state and a jewish state and there are rules that preserve it but you can't in most cases move out a ton of people so there has to be representation for the other group.
the illegal settlements ruin all this though in every way.
the most uncharitable interpretation of abolishing the discriminatory ethnostate is "kick out jews" which is not what reasonable people mean when they say that (some people obviously do though for various reasons, including fatigue from decades of horrific treatment)
but you pretty much have to do that to fix the settlements.
so like the israeli government forced it so your choices are let them erase palestinians unhindered or you're kicking out a bunch of jews anyway why not kick them all out under the same moral premise.
I'm not accepting any of this but I am pretty sure this was intentional and israel is betting people will side with the status quo
amenome
in reply to pettanko ✝️ • • •Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat)
in reply to subnettie • • •Dagda
in reply to Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat) • • •Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat)
in reply to Dagda • • •To be fair to the Zionists of that period, if some of the planet's major forces had just tried to wipe me out completely, I'd also be radicalised and fight to create a little space for myself to be safe in.
Despite what many anti-Zionists say, I don't think the founding of Israel had to do with Jewish supremacism or religious zealotry nearly as much as "ok, we really need a country for ourselves, to survive."
Blurry Moon
in reply to Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat) • • •Dagda
in reply to subnettie • • •subnettie
in reply to Dagda • • •YBG pern
in reply to subnettie • • •Dagda
in reply to subnettie • • •amenome
in reply to Blurry Moon • • •Blurry Moon
in reply to amenome • • •Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat)
in reply to amenome • • •After Oct 7 it's impossible anyway, but over the decades Israel has been a lot more open to the idea of a peaceful two state solution and willing to accept compromise.
It's sadly generally been rejected by the broad population of Arabs/Muslims, due to Islamic and Arab-supremacist mythology.
Mixed into that is also some anti-imperialist mythology, where Israel is seen as "evil westerners taking our land" despite Jews being indigenous to the region and a large portion of Israel's population consisting of Jews who moved there from neighbouring Muslim countries in which they were less safe.
Western leftists, being stupid about Islam, have chosen to pretend as if the main reason isn't just religious zealotry and antisemitism of Muslims, and have instead focused purely on the anti-imperialist myth, which to be fair is at least a half-truth given that Israel is allies with "the west."
Dagda
in reply to amenome • • •Blurry Moon
in reply to Dagda • • •Plan-A̵̛͈̬̥̿͋̓͛̕
in reply to Blurry Moon • •In the 1970s and 1980s, Israel did provide funding and tacit support to the Muslim Brotherhood network in Gaza (the precursor to Hamas) as a counterweight to the PLO and Fatah.
Israel's goal was to weaken Fatah's dominance and divide Palestinian politics, not to have Hamas win an election against the PLO. The strategy backfired
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_…
log in walled > theintercept.com/2018/02/19/ha…
Blurry Moon likes this.
Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat)
in reply to Plan-A̵̛͈̬̥̿͋̓͛̕ • • •As far as I can tell Mehdi Hasan is just an insane ideologue. And Wikipedia is just the mouthpiece of insane ideologues when it comes to "leftist causes."
I can take these conspiracy theories about as seriously as "Jews did 9/11."
Flick 🏴 likes this.
Plan-A̵̛͈̬̥̿͋̓͛̕
in reply to Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat) • — (0.0.0.0/ 0) •Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat)
in reply to Plan-A̵̛͈̬̥̿͋̓͛̕ • • •Clicking on the first source:
> Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products. Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
So, if Israel allows Gazans to do conduct business, it means Israel supports Hamas.
If Israel didn't allow Gazans to conduct business, it would be accused of starving Gazans to death by denying them the fundamental human right to work and earn money.
Whatever Israel does, insane ideologues will find some way to paint it as an evil act of genocidal intent. The fact this kind of drivel is published by The Times of Israel is not proof that it's a solid critique of Israel; it's just proof that Israel is a pluralistic society with a free press, that allows its independent journalists to criticize their own government in even the most illogical ways. (Meanwhile, try to publicly criticize Hamas in Gaza...)
like this
Dagda, LaylaAlexandrovna and Brooke like this.
Dagda
in reply to Blurry Moon • • •Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat)
in reply to Blurry Moon • • •They really don't want that. They prefer to keep waging war.
I'm generalizing and there's of course those who would accept it, but the overall sentiment in their society, which has also been reflected in election results (choosing Hamas) is that they'd rather die than allow Israel to exist. It's an incredibly frustrating situation.
Plan-A̵̛͈̬̥̿͋̓͛̕
in reply to Taylan (GNU+Feminism Cat) • — (0.0.0.0/ 0) •That is not correct, they rather die yes but they were colonized and they never strived to destroy Israel, rather equal rights.
Also, the idea of that Colonization from Europe was a bad idea, to get rid of Jews in EU they had to make this Zionist state with help of the Rothshields.
Non Jews, went there as well to flee communism back at that era in Eastern EU.
Bibi is Polish.