Since 1.10.2 the BBL network plugin ships with debugger detecting code that will terminate the application when a debugger is attached. This makes it impossible to run the slicer from Visual Studio...
@oliof @DJGummikuh I think you lost a crate here. In a way. The latest shenanigans is what triggered it, but it's rather a general shout of "FFS stop falling for the shiny shit already and fight for your rights"
@nicd For me, Prusa is generally reasonable because they don’t RFID chip everything, or demand you use their cloud to print and third party parts and upgrades are encouraged.
To all of you thinking this is a subtoot about Bambulab's latest shenanigans, it is what triggered it, but don't think for a second that other vendors are not looking closely at what's happening there & wondering what they can get away with.
And no, I frankly no longer trust even Prusa Research in that regard, given their quite aggressive push of their own software stack, at the cost of good compatibility with de-facto standards in their in-house firmware.
@nicd fair point, thank you for reminding me! I’ve updated my reply accordingly. (That was the kind of thing you meant, right? Or is there more I’m unaware of?)
@klikini @nicd Sadly not only that... we still get help requests from people running into the one or other compatibility issue just when trying to use their printers through OctoPrint, due to unsupported standard gcodes or weird behaviours in existing ones.
They threw away a working firmware in favour of an in-house development with a half-baked serial interface, because why would people still need that when they have their own So MuCh BeTtEr software stack 😬
@nicd Prusa owner since 2019. They are open source and as it is mine they allow upgrading and even help you use third party slicers and hardware (E3D Revo nozzles). Bambu Labs took 3D printing by storm with cheapish but good printers, but are quickly locking you into their eco system with restrictive firmware changes and forcing you to upload all your prints to their servers (from my understanding). My next printer with be a Prusa CoreOne.
To all of you thinking this is a subtoot about Bambulab's latest shenanigans, it is what triggered it, but don't think for a second that other vendors are not looking closely at what's happening there & wondering what they can get away with.
And no, I frankly no longer trust even Prusa Research in that regard, given their quite aggressive push of their own software stack, at the cost of good compatibility with de-facto standards in their in-house firmware.
I think Prusa's stance on the warranty seal is fair. If I load firmware that can set the printer on fire, I don't expect them to take liability for that. They do still honor the mechanical warranty and there's a page in the manual that comes with it that shows how to do it, with a photo. I'm not finding much to complain about, tbh.
I'm not even talking about the seal. I'm talking about their in-house firmware that's still missing basic functionality on the standard interface, frustrating their users (which then end up in OctoPrint's support channels, sometimes quite angry at OctoPrint instead of Prusa) but giving the solution of these problems FAR less attention than their own in-house software stack they are pushing. Their priorities show a certain goal here IMHO.
They are happy to show you how to not use their firmware, they're just not gonna take liability for any non-first-party firmware. I can't see how that stance isn't reasonable.
The Prusa CORE One, and the Original Prusa MK4/S, MK3.9/S, and MK3.5/S are equipped with an xBuddy board. In their factory state, our printers only accept official firmware. To flash any unofficial firmware to the printer, it is necessary to break t…
I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. Which is that they are selling a firmware with their current line of printers that is missing some important functionality, and their priorities are not fixing that situation but rather pushing their own software stack (not firmware, host software!) that is only compatible to their line of printers.
That's a vendor lock-in approach, regardless of whether I can still flash my own firmware (breaking the seal) or not.
@ben Are you aware that I'm the creator & maintainer of OctoPrint, a piece of software that was built to interface with 3d printers like this? I'm well aware of all of that. I've seen plenty of users now on our forum and discord asking for help after running into issues with the in-house firmware that works worse with OctoPrint than their Marlin fork did in various ways, & reports from their support that users should use their own "Connect" software instead. THAT'S what I'm talking about there.
My basic motivation for wanting open source software/firmware/hardware is to avoid vendor lockin or disappearance or enforced enshittification, so I tend to ascribe that motivation to others as well.
And I see that you have to be concerned about users using the default firmware and being disappointed, whereas I (and I assumed you) only care about whether I can load my own.
@ben I wish I was still in the position to only worry about that, alas, with the job & the responsibility it comes with I have to look at the big picture. I'm looking at the default experience of users, and what they get told from the company's support, and that's where I'm seeing red flags - sadly I should add.
But good to hear we have solved the communication issue, I had a feeling we weren't on the same page & thus pulled the "do you know who I am" which I usually don't & hate to do 😅
@nicd Prusa is one of the best when it comes to Open-source hardware, with Voron and other fully DIY printers being the only ones that can surpass it.
With the exception of the motherboards (and even then that doesn't apply at least for the Prusa Mini), they have all BOMs, STEP files, and STLs, for just about every single part, including custom PCBs. And that includes the SL1.
Though I haven't seen those things for the MK4/XL/One, I believe they'll still publish most of those things sooner or later, minus eventually the motherboards for the more recent printers.
Most other companies (Sovol has some hardware open-sourced, too) will, at best, run Klipper, and that's the extent of their open-sourcing.
To all of you thinking this is a subtoot about Bambulab's latest shenanigans, it is what triggered it, but don't think for a second that other vendors are not looking closely at what's happening there & wondering what they can get away with.
And no, I frankly no longer trust even Prusa Research in that regard, given their quite aggressive push of their own software stack, at the cost of good compatibility with de-facto standards in their in-house firmware.
To all of you thinking this is a subtoot about Bambulab's latest shenanigans, it is what triggered it, but don't think for a second that other vendors are not looking closely at what's happening there & wondering what they can get away with.
And no, I frankly no longer trust even Prusa Research in that regard, given their quite aggressive push of their own software stack, at the cost of good compatibility with de-facto standards in their in-house firmware.
@wickelkranz You have now arrived at the point where I am already and which is making me incredibly frustrated. The whole market of consumer 3d printers is - excuse my french - pretty fucked right now thanks to a large part of the community choosing shiny over open and drinking the kool-aid of aggressive marketing departments blasting every influencer with their products, and it will take a while before it becomes unfucked, if ever.
Don't even accept them as gifts. School I used to work at "won" one at a conference. The filament came in cartridges that cost 3x regular spools and had chips in that the printer *required* in order to operate. Then the company stopped selling them.
Bought a gorgeous printer ~14 years ago ago from 3DSystems. It was *super* expensive for me at the time, but had a large build area, 2 heads, and other great features ideal for what I was working on at the time.
They stopped supporting the device a couple years later as they transitioned from high-end hobby level to a more industrial focus 🙄😒🤬
Thank you for pointing this out. I either get open-source printers or find ways of getting open-source hardware into proprietary printers with good design.
The reward is worth the paint dealing with it.
And thank you for making such great open-source software that makes my life easier.
like, I don't disagree entirely ... but also are there really ANY fully-open 3d printers that even come close to the ease of use of Bambu or Prusa? Many people, including me, want a “push button get part" experience. Like, I might build a Voron some day because that seems like a super fun project! But it doesn't seem like the best plan if I just want to print some brackets.
It feels like with 3d printers it’s: "good, easy, open -- choose two". Am I wrong about that? (Hope so!)
@jacob There used to be. Currently nothing comes to mind. Why? "Oh, look, shiny & convenient, me want, regardless of the consequences"
We got to thank large parts of the community and influencers drinking & spreading the kool-aid (and taking the money and/or free hardware) for that. It will be a long way until the market recovers, if ever. Otherwise expect even more enshittification everywhere and the end of choice.
@jacob Now imagine being the full time maintainer of a piece of open source software built to interface with 3d printers to give users as much choice as possible in how they use their machines, and you might get an idea how incredibly frustrated, angry and at times close to just giving up I feel.
oh yeah totally, I completely understand. (My version of this was finding out that Django's being used as a component in some weapons systems…) It's gotta be incredibly frustrating.
Gina Häußge
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •It has to be said though:
I told you so.
DJGummikuh
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Harald Wagener
in reply to DJGummikuh • • •Harald Wagener
in reply to Harald Wagener • • •@DJGummikuh but if it's about mastodon.social/@geerlingguy/1… I have a crate of Spezi here for you to pick up @foosel
Jeff Geerling
2025-04-30 04:35:25
Gina Häußge
in reply to Harald Wagener • • •@oliof @DJGummikuh I think you lost a crate here. In a way. The latest shenanigans is what triggered it, but it's rather a general shout of "FFS stop falling for the shiny shit already and fight for your rights"
PS: Do I get a bottle from that crate of Spezi?
Nicd
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •As someone looking at getting our first 3D printer, I'd be interested in knowing more. Is there some specific situation this references?
Is Prusa reasonable?
Robee? Na! 🌈
in reply to Nicd • • •Andy
in reply to Nicd • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to Andy • • •@klikini @nicd chaos.social/@foosel/114427509…
Gina Häußge
2025-04-30 15:00:36
Andy
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to Andy • • •@klikini @nicd Sadly not only that... we still get help requests from people running into the one or other compatibility issue just when trying to use their printers through OctoPrint, due to unsupported standard gcodes or weird behaviours in existing ones.
They threw away a working firmware in favour of an in-house development with a half-baked serial interface, because why would people still need that when they have their own So MuCh BeTtEr software stack 😬
BadMonkeyEdd
in reply to Nicd • • •Prusa owner since 2019. They are open source and as it is mine they allow upgrading and even help you use third party slicers and hardware (E3D Revo nozzles).
Bambu Labs took 3D printing by storm with cheapish but good printers, but are quickly locking you into their eco system with restrictive firmware changes and forcing you to upload all your prints to their servers (from my understanding).
My next printer with be a Prusa CoreOne.
Ben Cox
in reply to BadMonkeyEdd • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to Ben Cox • • •@ben @BadMonkeyEdd @nicd chaos.social/@foosel/114427509…
Gina Häußge
2025-04-30 15:00:36
Ben Cox
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to Ben Cox • • •Ben Cox
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •They are happy to show you how to not use their firmware, they're just not gonna take liability for any non-first-party firmware. I can't see how that stance isn't reasonable.
help.prusa3d.com/article/flash…
Flashing custom firmware (CORE One, MK4/S, MK3.9/S, MK3.5/S) | Prusa Knowledge Base
help.prusa3d.comBen Cox
in reply to Ben Cox • • •Ben Cox
in reply to Ben Cox • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to Ben Cox • • •I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. Which is that they are selling a firmware with their current line of printers that is missing some important functionality, and their priorities are not fixing that situation but rather pushing their own software stack (not firmware, host software!) that is only compatible to their line of printers.
That's a vendor lock-in approach, regardless of whether I can still flash my own firmware (breaking the seal) or not.
Ben Cox
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Ben Cox
in reply to Ben Cox • • •Prusa3D
GitHubGina Häußge
in reply to Ben Cox • • •Ben Cox
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •I was not! I've used OctoPrint myself, and I thank you for it. I only stopped using it when my Pi broke and I gave away my old printer.
Yeah now I can see why that would be significantly more frustrating to you than me.
Ben Cox
in reply to Ben Cox • • •Ben Cox
in reply to Ben Cox • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to Ben Cox • • •@ben I wish I was still in the position to only worry about that, alas, with the job & the responsibility it comes with I have to look at the big picture. I'm looking at the default experience of users, and what they get told from the company's support, and that's where I'm seeing red flags - sadly I should add.
But good to hear we have solved the communication issue, I had a feeling we weren't on the same page & thus pulled the "do you know who I am" which I usually don't & hate to do 😅
__Miguel_
in reply to Nicd • • •@nicd Prusa is one of the best when it comes to Open-source hardware, with Voron and other fully DIY printers being the only ones that can surpass it.
With the exception of the motherboards (and even then that doesn't apply at least for the Prusa Mini), they have all BOMs, STEP files, and STLs, for just about every single part, including custom PCBs. And that includes the SL1.
Though I haven't seen those things for the MK4/XL/One, I believe they'll still publish most of those things sooner or later, minus eventually the motherboards for the more recent printers.
Most other companies (Sovol has some hardware open-sourced, too) will, at best, run Klipper, and that's the extent of their open-sourcing.
Gina Häußge
in reply to __Miguel_ • • •@nanianmichaels @nicd chaos.social/@foosel/114427509…
Gina Häußge
2025-04-30 15:00:36
Gina Häußge
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •To all of you thinking this is a subtoot about Bambulab's latest shenanigans, it is what triggered it, but don't think for a second that other vendors are not looking closely at what's happening there & wondering what they can get away with.
And no, I frankly no longer trust even Prusa Research in that regard, given their quite aggressive push of their own software stack, at the cost of good compatibility with de-facto standards in their in-house firmware.
Be wary. Demand open access.
Spark reshared this.
Benjamin Monjoie
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Rainer Jochem
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to Rainer Jochem • • •danielkrah
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Bradley
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •@wickelkranz you can't go on YouTube now without a bunch of people recommending the latest Bambu stuff. They must be spending a ton.
They do really look like great printers too which sucks.
If you're a total beginner these are going to make you experience better for sure.
I suspect we were lucky to have the amount of openess in 3d print and that may become smaller and smaller portion of it if they are to go mainstream.
Gina Häußge
in reply to Bradley • • •@bradley @wickelkranz
> if they are to go mainstream
They already are as mainstream as they can get in this market.
Bradley
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •@wickelkranz certainly possible, I was more thinking of a Bambu mini in every house type mainstream which is what I think they would like to happen.
Then you just open your bambu app to find a print to buy and order more bambu filament, etc.
I'm not a fan of that myself of course
Alyn
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Andreas Ringdal
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •SrGesus
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •John Francis 🦫🇨🇦🍁💪⬆️
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •"while I was sleeping, it printed a frame around my mouse and keyboard so I can't go buy an open printer".
If dirty proprietary software tricks were made physical...
Jack Linke 🦄
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Learned that lesson hard.
Bought a gorgeous printer ~14 years ago ago from 3DSystems. It was *super* expensive for me at the time, but had a large build area, 2 heads, and other great features ideal for what I was working on at the time.
They stopped supporting the device a couple years later as they transitioned from high-end hobby level to a more industrial focus 🙄😒🤬
Chirayu
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Alex Volkov
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Thank you for pointing this out. I either get open-source printers or find ways of getting open-source hardware into proprietary printers with good design.
The reward is worth the paint dealing with it.
And thank you for making such great open-source software that makes my life easier.
jacobian
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •like, I don't disagree entirely ... but also are there really ANY fully-open 3d printers that even come close to the ease of use of Bambu or Prusa? Many people, including me, want a “push button get part" experience. Like, I might build a Voron some day because that seems like a super fun project! But it doesn't seem like the best plan if I just want to print some brackets.
It feels like with 3d printers it’s: "good, easy, open -- choose two". Am I wrong about that? (Hope so!)
Gina Häußge
in reply to jacobian • • •@jacob There used to be. Currently nothing comes to mind. Why? "Oh, look, shiny & convenient, me want, regardless of the consequences"
We got to thank large parts of the community and influencers drinking & spreading the kool-aid (and taking the money and/or free hardware) for that. It will be a long way until the market recovers, if ever. Otherwise expect even more enshittification everywhere and the end of choice.
jacobian
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to jacobian • • •jacobian
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •Gina Häußge
in reply to jacobian • • •jacobian
in reply to Gina Häußge • • •