Unfortunately, Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now, due to a new state law that requires age verification for all users. While intended for child safety, we think this law poses broader challenges & creates significant barriers that limit free speech & harm smaller platforms like ours.
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Eugen Rochko
in reply to Bluesky • • •Radio Free Trumpistan likes this.
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your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦, Lambert Heller, ComputerNut43, Mastodon Migration, Ben Royce 🇺🇦, Mother Bones, Radio Free Trumpistan, David August ❌👑, Robert Kingett and Michael Stanclift reshared this.
Jay 🆘
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Radio Free Trumpistan likes this.
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Eugen Rochko
in reply to Jay 🆘 • • •Radio Free Trumpistan likes this.
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Laurens Hof
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Eugen Rochko
in reply to Laurens Hof • • •Radio Free Trumpistan likes this.
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Anuj Ahooja
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •There is no gatekeeper for how you tap into the ATProto network as well. Here's a short list of just some of the ways Bsky PBC can't block a user's access today: bsky.app/profile/jackvalinsky.…
And there's even more options than that out there.
@laurenshof @jsit @bsky.app
jack
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •also it’s waaaay easier to setup a PDS than any AP software. i eventually got this GoToSocial one up, but my atproto PDS was far easier.
i’m 16 and i got my atproto PDS up in less than an hour..lol - with that you can bypass laws with custom scripts to change your region etc 😁
Eugen Rochko
in reply to jack • • •reshared this
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Anuj Ahooja
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •If you see the post I linked to one reply above, it'll be clear that no user is beholden to the PBC.
@jack @laurenshof @jsit @bsky.app
Eugen Rochko
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •See this analysis of the Bluesky architecture by someone way smarter than me:
dustycloud.org/blog/how-decent…
How decentralized is Bluesky really? -- Dustycloud Brainstorms
dustycloud.orgAnuj Ahooja
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •I have read the full back and forth of that conversation, but it doesn't seem like you're looking at what I've sent that proves decentralization.
@jack @laurenshof @jsit @bsky.app
Eugen Rochko
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •Anuj Ahooja
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Red Dwarf doesn't use Bsky if you're not on their PDSs as well. Blacksky is early and is already the biggest non-Bsky non-bot PDS hoster and has built the whole ATProto stack from scratch in Rust. And there's more. This goes way deeper than you think it does.
@jack @laurenshof @jsit @bsky.app
Eugen Rochko
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •Anuj Ahooja
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •So are we agreeing that ATProto is decentralized? Because that's different than the fear of what funding will potentially lead to one day in the future.
And if you fear that, then shouldn't we triple down on making sure that the PBC doesn't hold all the power before that happens, do adversarial interop, and make sure it's in it's ideal decentralized state asap?
@jack @laurenshof @jsit @bsky.app
Eugen Rochko
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •eblu
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to eblu • • •the misinformation in question is representing #centralized #socialMedia like #bluesky as if it were decentralized
we all understand the amazing tech that *promises* #decentralization but the *reality* is that it is not
the #fediverse is genuinely decentralized, and bluesky may one day be decentralized
but it isn't now
this upsets people like yourself who view the issue in cultish terms: how dare someone cite reality
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Joe (TBA) 🇺🇸
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Joe (TBA) 🇺🇸 • • •the essential problem with #bluesky is that it promises a lot, but delivers little in the realm of #decentralization (reality, not technical potential)
now there's something interesting about that:
bluesky is run by #crypto bros
in crypto, promising a lot, not delivering, but generating devotion off of the promise, is the standard grift template
and you see it in the cultish denial of many commenting here
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Pusher of Pixels
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •a more modern take on self hosted/decentralized Bluesky whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2…
(which I found from pluralistic.net/2025/08/15/dog…)
Cory said he wasn't going to Bluesky until he could self host...and it seems like his criteria are being met finally
A Full-Network Relay for $34 a Month | bryan newbold
whtwnd.comBen Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Pusher of Pixels • • •i read that entire article a few days ago, i don't remember cory saying anything like "his criteria are being met finally"
what i remember is cory being mystified by bluesky's new TOS
do you have a clear indication cory is doing that?
Pusher of Pixels
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Pusher of Pixels • • •thank you
and of course cory's reach on bluesky will be limited in places like mississippi
now the "you don't need to be on bluesky to read that though" reply guys
missing the entire point of bluesky's de facto centralization
Pusher of Pixels
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •yeah, it's a similar thing I say about civil rights. The most interesting cases pit 2 rights against each other.
I'm happy BS (my name for them haha) is slowly getting to some de-centralization capability...but how that will play with their monied backers will be an interesting thing to watch.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Pusher of Pixels • • •yup
the looming issue with #bluesky:
bluesky is financially backdoored such that as it grows in popularity it will suffer the same fate that befell #twitter
investors will demand a return, a return that can't be delivered without centralization
and then they engineer a takeover putting an elon #musk type at the helm
this is how #plutocracy destroys #socialMedia
enjoy bluesky
but it's doomed
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.
Clinton Anderson SwordForHire
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Radio Free Trumpistan likes this.
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eblu
in reply to Clinton Anderson SwordForHire • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to eblu • • •"we understand vulture capital will destroy #bluesky, and we've prepared for that by making it possible to have rebel bases"
"why don't you just use something that is already decentralized, like #mastodon/ #fediverse"
"you don't understand, this is a cult-centered discussion"
...
"in case the shareholders come knocking"
"in case"
🤦♂️
Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.
Joe (TBA) 🇺🇸
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Joe (TBA) 🇺🇸 • • •exactly
the person i responded to is talking about "in case" shareholders come knocking
like "in case" my mouth goes on fire after eating chili peppers
🤦
bluesky is doomed
the crypto bro venture capitalists *will* demand a return on their investment, and apparently some believe you just send them away
no. they send you away:
they replace the leadership to get their money
Joe (TBA) 🇺🇸
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •reshared this
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Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •if i loan you $200, i want my money back
you, a board, whatever entity you are, needs to pay it back
you need to make moves to satisfy me, your investor
if you don't, i can go after you
so usually you will say "ok, i'll do this to earn some money"
this is how venture capital can destroy anything
app.dealroom.co/companies/blue…
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Joe (TBA) 🇺🇸 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •i don't understand what you're saying
"something else failed so this other thing over here won't fail"?
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •bluesky will fail in the same way any entity controlled by venture capital will fail if it doesn't earn enough. like twitter didn't. instead, the ghouls moved in when they didn't get their money back
it doesn't matter about the technology. it doesn't matter if it's a social media company or if they are a high end waffle restaurant: they need to earn money on an investment
eblu
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to eblu • • •will they let you migrate?
what did twitter do to interop when elon musk took over?
eblu
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •twitter never had interop, they just had an API that you already had to pay for before they forced Musk to buy it. it's already possible to migrate your user data right now, and there are other servers that you can migrate said data to running, not to mention that people have independently hosted their own version of every part of bluesky's infrastructure.
I'm not saying that bluesky is perfect or better than mastodon though. they don't really expose any of this to users and you can't move back to bluesky last I heard. I just don't think that being dismissive of innovations from other places, even if they come from a VC-backed company, is very productive. don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they say
Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to eblu • • •api is interop
"they just had an API that you already had to pay for"
vvv
Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •my point to you is:
you understand the malice crypto bro venture capital represents to bluesky
but
you think the interop you rely on won't be blocked
why do you believe it won't be blocked?
George Saich
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to George Saich • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to George Saich • • •House Panther
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •cultdev
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Jürgen Hubert
in reply to cultdev • • •David Fleetwood - RG Admin
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Also, it's literally solving a solved problem but in the way that makes it most compatible with corporate interests.
If they were serious they'd just be contributing to the existing standard and modeling their advancements like dozens of forked projects are doing on Fedi.
Eugen Rochko
in reply to eblu • • •eblu
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •You seem to, from what I'm seeing, have a basic understanding of how the AT protocol works but not how it is decentralized in practice, and I think you might be confusing it with ActivityPub's model of distribution, but I could be wrong. A lot of us in this thread have been trying to explain this but you seem to be dismissive about it instead of understanding. I totally understand as someone who was also like this but it helps to read up about the subject from those who currently work with the protocol itself.
I also feel that you believe that Mastodon is above the law because it doesn't have any official presence in areas where age-verification laws exist, however the Mississippi law that Bluesky is protesting, for example, applies nondiscriminately to all platforms, regardless of where they are based.
I really don't want to come off as saying that Bluesky is a better platform, rather that I want to hold you accountable for any "not invented here" biases that you might have.
Eugen Rochko
in reply to eblu • • •reshared this
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eblu
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Yep, there's nothing really incorrect here (outside of that Mastodon is also responsible for mastodon.online). I should mention that this is also what Bluesky is essentially doing; they've blocked off access to the frontend that they control, while leaving the user data and relays that they host accessible. Anything built on their protocol can still communicate with it, and they do not have to implement geo-blocking because Bluesky does not control them.
I do understand your concern, however; there's nothing stopping them from outright blocking anything independently operated from pulling from their relays or directly from their PDSes themselves. But the same could be said about Mastodon instances through the practice of defederation.
Bluesky technically has the upper hand here because they architected their protocol in a way where each user is identified by a decentralized ID instead of a URI tied to a specific hostname, and full data portability i
... show moreYep, there's nothing really incorrect here (outside of that Mastodon is also responsible for mastodon.online). I should mention that this is also what Bluesky is essentially doing; they've blocked off access to the frontend that they control, while leaving the user data and relays that they host accessible. Anything built on their protocol can still communicate with it, and they do not have to implement geo-blocking because Bluesky does not control them.
I do understand your concern, however; there's nothing stopping them from outright blocking anything independently operated from pulling from their relays or directly from their PDSes themselves. But the same could be said about Mastodon instances through the practice of defederation.
Bluesky technically has the upper hand here because they architected their protocol in a way where each user is identified by a decentralized ID instead of a URI tied to a specific hostname, and full data portability is strictly specified, something that Mastodon only partially has an analog to, however it still remains a social issue because most people don't really want to move off of Bluesky servers at this time, or are even aware that it's an option.
Glossary of terms - AT Protocol
AT ProtocolEugen Rochko
in reply to eblu • • •reshared this
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Eugen Rochko
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •reshared this
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Eugen Rochko
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •reshared this
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Sean Tilley
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •@bsky.app@bsky.brid.gy I mean, yes, but: in the Fediverse, identity is tightly coupled to instances. You can move to other instances or platforms, but there’s a bunch of conditions as to whether or not it will actually work. If your instance permanently goes down all of a sudden, you basically have to start over from scratch.
I think one thing Bluesky actually got right with AT Protocol is that your identity, your PDS, and your social stream all effectively exist on separate layers. Trying to make ActivityPub do a similar thing is…technically possible, but also really, really difficult. It would require a massive undertaking.
Jürgen Hubert
in reply to Sean Tilley • • •"You can move to other instances or platforms, but there’s a bunch of conditions as to whether or not it will actually work. If your instance permanently goes down all of a sudden, you basically have to start over from scratch."
I've moved my Mastodon instance twice so far, and each went without a hitch.
And if my current instance _did_ close without a warning, I would not "start over from scratch" either - since I semi-regularly back up my user data, and could import these to a new instance.
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Paul Chernoff
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Paul Chernoff • • •@eblu @quillmatiq @jack @laurenshof @jsit @bsky.app
they won't because the servers are small potatoes
if the servers grew large it would become an issue
you could do tricks like requiring a credit card number. it doesn't have to be charged for anything, but you have to be 18 in the usa to have your own credit card
some people will grumble about that
but the alternative is to shut down
and people should be donating to their mastodon server anyways
Chris Lowles
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Chris Lowles • • •a web browser is a third party client
an 8 year old, living anywhere, can view a comments in a web browser not logged in, no matter what the laws are
this issue of some third party client has no meaning
the issue is bluesky, which is where people interact with bluesky
and that is what matters because bluesky is de facto centralized, despite the exciting promises being made
Deb Nam-Krane
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •Anuj Ahooja
in reply to Deb Nam-Krane • • •That's not how ATProto works, but yes - there are ATProto constructs that enable folks from Mississippi to continue interacting with the network in the same way an ActivityPub server can.
@Gargron @jack @laurenshof @jsit @benroyce
Deb Nam-Krane
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Deb Nam-Krane • • •jack and anuj are doing the doing the hand waving thing:
"yes bluesky is not decentralized, but like you can view twitter without being logged in, from anywhere, at any age, in this way someday bluesky can be decentralized, because there is a protocol to view something that bluesky users have nothing to do with"
it's about quasireligious devotion to a promise over reality with these types
jack
in reply to Deb Nam-Krane • • •Deb Nam-Krane
in reply to jack • • •Anuj Ahooja
in reply to Deb Nam-Krane • • •Bluesky itself is not "a server", that is not how the protocol it's built on works
@jack @Gargron @laurenshof @jsit
Deb Nam-Krane
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Deb Nam-Krane • • •Deb, i regret to inform you that your comment means you are no longer allowed in the cult
leave the holy sanctuary now
jack
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Not *anybody*, there are multiple third party relays and appviews in operation - look at microcosm.blue/
and you could argue that mastodon.social connects a lot of the fediverse. this morning I finished setting up this instance and when I boosted it from my old acc on mastodon.social the instances that federated with this GTS instance went up by over 100… if you started blocking many instances, or had to shutdown, the fediverse would be very broken
microcosm: atproto building blocks
www.microcosm.blueEugen Rochko
in reply to jack • • •Anuj Ahooja
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Again, if you look at the link I've sent you in this thread, you'll see why this isn't true (specifically, see Red Dwarf)
@jack @laurenshof @jsit @bsky.app
Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Anuj Ahooja • • •jack
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to jack • • •ok
and?
jack
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to jack • • •on the contrary, a "go read this" reply to a "go read this" comment is quite funny
but please by all means continue missing the point, and providing more to laugh at
jack
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦 • • •honestly your profile is the funniest thing i've seen today, so thanks 😭🙏
you are supposedly so excited for federation yet want to block Bluesky and Threads.. 🤡
Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to jack • • •bluesky is not decentralized
threads is run by meta
which should end the discussion
but i am sure a stunt commenter like yourself, not interested in honesty, will find a nice angle to posture on
please, go right ahead
🍿
also, nice job changing the topic, being unable to admit my point, another clear indication of what you're all about
M. Grégoire
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Putting aside the technical issues and the Fediverse overall, will mastodon.social block Mississippi users because of this law?
@bsky.app
Jay 🆘
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •I think what people need to understand is that using the Fediverse instead of Bluesky doesn't mean you aren't subject to these laws. It just means that the people who run your instance are more free to flaunt them if they choose.
I think what people are trying to say to you Eugen is that it might be advisable to tell Fediverse instance operators that this is something they should be aware of and make an informed decision about.
Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Jay 🆘 • • •the person running a server for 100 people in glasgow scotland will get right on that pronto, yes sir
and if you understand that point, you understand the larger point
but i think rather that you are avoiding the point
videah θΔ
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Eugen Rochko
in reply to videah θΔ • • •Faraiwe
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •THIS, 1173%.
This is why CORPORATE (namely vc crypto techbros) owned social media will always be Twitter2.0
Jay 🆘
in reply to Jay 🆘 • • •Ben Royce 🇺🇦
in reply to Jay 🆘 • • •yes, it would be, if they were running a de facto centralized network like bluesky
but they're not, so it's not
utzer
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Eugen Rochko
in reply to utzer • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Nemes Content
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Oh this is going to be a good thread.
a man wearing 3d glasses is ho...
Mike Masnick
in reply to Nemes Content • • •Nemes Content
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Nemes Content • • •Eugen Rochko
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Jared White (ResistanceNet ✊)
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@gargron.mastodon.social.ap.brid.gy@mastodon.social
I continue to feel this is wrong.
*Anyone* can start a fediverse instance and be a publisher literally of 1. And yet they remain every bit as equal a participant in the overall global network.
Who today is successfully running 1-person ATProto infra and still enjoying all the features of Bluesky?
Jake
in reply to Jared White (ResistanceNet ✊) • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Jake • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •The question no one seems able to answer is who has a completely independent ATproto PDS, relay, and AppView where users can sign up?
If running all three of these is just $250 per month, why aren't there dozens of such independent AT Proto instances?
Seriously trying to understand why no one answers this question.
It seems the closest to this is currently Blacksky and they're still missing the AppView piece. Right?
cc: @folkerschamel
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •The reason it is important to answer this question is because bold claims are being made without citing any evidence by people officially associated with Bluesky, like in this thread from earlier today involving Mike Masnick and @folkerschamel: mastodon.social/@folkerschamel…
If we are to have this conversation it should be with real facts and examples not aggressive hyperbolic assertions.
Folker
2025-08-23 22:09:09
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •If Blacksky is the best example of a scaled "independent" Bluesky (ATProto) instance. Then it becomes possible to talk about how independent it actually is (no AppView yet, the DID repository). It's then also possible to look at what percentage of users are "independent" of Bluesky PBC technology.
Leaving aside the issue of the DID database, it seems like right now there are no users fully independent, or at least very few. That's just a fact.
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Introduction to AT Protocol
mackuba.euMastodon Migration
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •And, the number of users on the non-Bluesky side of the cut the cord test would need to be significant, say at least 25% (or pick a number) of the total ATProto user base.
Finally, the DID has to be secured in a public non-profit lock box.
This seems like the bare minimum necessary for Bluesky to claim they are truly decentralized.
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •bnewbold.net
bnewbold.netFolker
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •And even this is only the technical perspective, which is the simple one.
Even if all these points are fulfilled, this does not mean decentralization in practice.
To demonstrate the absurdity of the purely technical argument, you could even argue cynically that #twitter has a "credible exit" because every user can export their tweets and following list, and import it into a not-yet-existing new system ...
Jared White (ResistanceNet ✊)
in reply to Folker • • •As they say, the purpose of a system is what it does.
Until we actually see many examples of non-nerds engaging successfully in the ATmosphere without utilizing *any* infrastructure controlled in any way by Bluesky, then the claim it's a decentralized social networking protocol rings hollow.
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Jared White (ResistanceNet ✊) • • •Agreed. What is important from a user perspective is not technological potential or corporate aspirations, but ground truth current reality.
It is nice to know the potential may exist, but until it is realized it is just a possibility.
The thing that is most troubling about Bluesky and Mike Masnick's assertions is conflating this possibility with reality.
Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋 • • •The fact that users "don't care" about something does not mean that it is not an important characteristic, as we are learning with each successive instance of autocratic centralized action.
Twitter people didn't care about it either, until the hammer came down.
Jake
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Kuba Suder • @mackuba.eu on 🦋
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •- while PDS and relay are very easy to set up now, the AppView isn't - there isn't much documentation about it and I think it's missing some pieces like a part that indexes the existing posts created earlier; I think it took Futur who wrote a blog post about running AppView a few months to figure it out (though now he's blazed the trail a bit)
Eugen Rochko
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Okay. Please help me understand:
- Who owns bsky.app and the apps named "Bluesky" in the app stores?
- Who owns the app view the above connect to?
- Who owns the relay the above app view uses?
- Where are the parties that own the above domiciled?
Glyph
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Glyph • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Only a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of #atproto users is not dependent on #bluesky infrastructure. Basically all #atproto users - and literally all #bluesky users - are dependent on #bluesky and their decisions. That's a simple reality which cannot be taken away by all the tech talk how cool #atproto is in theory.
Glyph
in reply to Folker • • •ikuturso
in reply to Glyph • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to ikuturso • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Glyph
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Glyph
in reply to Glyph • • •Blacksky - Open Collective
opencollective.comMike Masnick
in reply to Glyph • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •ikuturso
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to ikuturso • • •Eugen Rochko
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Mastodon
Mastodon hosted on mastodon.socialEugen Rochko
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Nathan A. Stine
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Nathan A. Stine • • •Eugen Rochko
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Of course #mastadon is better positioned to wheather this mississippi law, because a) different #mastodon instances can decide differently (e.g. implementing some kind of age verification instead of blocking, giving users choices instead of #bluesky forcing down their decision to everyone's throat), and b) most instances are outside the us jurisdiction anyway and therefore don't have to worry about the mississippi law.
J.R. Cruciani
in reply to Folker • • •Pluralistic: Bluesky creates the world’s weirdest, hardest-to-understand binding arbitration clause (15 Aug 2025) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow
pluralistic.netFolker
in reply to J.R. Cruciani • • •Unlike #bluesky, #mastodon is not blocked centrally in Mississippi.
Glad to hear it.
It wouldn't have been technically possible anyway, since #mastodon is decentralized.
techcrunch.com/2025/08/29/mast…
#decentralization #activitypub #atproto #bluesky #decentralizationwashing
Mastodon says it doesn't 'have the means' to comply with age verification laws | TechCrunch
Sarah Perez (TechCrunch)Cory Doctorow
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Cory Doctorow • • •"Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now" as by the company #bluesky Social, PB itself. See the original post of this thread.
Plain, simple, and correct.
Your post is what I mean by #decentralizationwashing: Claiming theoretical #decentralization, but without real-world relevance. Basically nobody is using an own Personal Data Servers or alt client. And wouldn't evade the block anyway.
Folker
in reply to Folker • • •Unlike #bluesky, #mastodon is not blocked centrally in Mississippi.
Glad to hear it.
It wouldn't have been technically possible anyway, since #mastodon is decentralized.
techcrunch.com/2025/08/29/mast…
(Posting reply mastodon.social/@folkerschamel…, which wasn't bridged, again, but this time as reply to myself to see if bridging is working then.)
#decentralization #activitypub #atproto #decentralizationwashing
Folker
2025-08-29 19:15:45
Mike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron @stinerman @ikuturso @glyph
Discuss that with Bluesky Social PBC @bsky.app and their VC investors. As said before, I'm only the messenger.😉 Well, not even that, I'm only the message-repeater "Bluesky is unavailable in Mississippi right now"
mastodon.social/@bsky.app@bsky…
What are "mastodon instances"? I never understood that concept techies are talking like crazy about all the time. Are they the cause for "centrally block[ing]" as you say?😉
Mastodon
mastodon.socialMike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Mastodon
Mastodon hosted on mastodon.socialMike Masnick
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Well, I'm just relaying what your colleagues of Bluesky Social PBC are saying, see my previous post - argue with them instead of me.
Or with the people of the Mississippi Free Press, who said that the action of #bluesky is a "significant blow" to them mississippifreepress.org/edito….
But yes, personally I like like the decentralized world of #mastodon and #activitypub without a single corporation controlling the infrastructure and data most users are dependent on.
Editor’s Note | Bluesky Blocks Mississippi IPs, Citing State’s Age Verification Law, Free Speech and Privacy Concerns
Ashton Pittman (Mississippi Free Press)Mastodon Migration
in reply to Folker • • •There is a big difference between truly decentralized and technically decentralizable.
See: Are we decentralized yet >>> arewedecentralizedyet.online/
Are We Decentralized Yet?
arewedecentralizedyet.onlineMastodon Migration reshared this.
Folker
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •A picture is worth a thousand words.
Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@ikuturso @glyph @Gargron
Nobody said or implied that in this thread, on the contrary.
The point is that in practice #bluesky is quite centralized, because nearly all #atproto users are dependent on #bluesky, which is controlled by one company, and their centralized decisions.
As we can witness right now.
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Vault Boy
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •This is kinda fundamental. You say "a lot?", but that's not as convincing as a full search engine of sites who want you to join them and are all, by definition, 100% independent of any other mastodon instance. Heck, even Truth Social is a Mastodon instance. joinmastodon.org/servers
Servers
Servers
joinmastodon.orgMike Masnick
in reply to Vault Boy • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •That's a deflection again. Nobody doubts that technically both #activitypub and #atproto support decentralization.
But the point is that *in practice* basically all #bluesky users are concentrated on infrastructure of a single company under US jurisdiction, while #mastodon users are distributed over many servers in many jurisdictions all over the world.
The consequences can be seen with Mississippi.
mastodon.social/@ikuturso/1151…
mastodon.social/@mastodonmigra…
ikuturso (@ikuturso@mastodon.social)
MastodonMastodon Migration
in reply to Folker • • •The technique Mike Masnick employs is to ignore the substance of the critique. #Bluesky may technically be capable of decentralization, but in practice it is still highly centralized. Instead, he repeats the mantra there are some examples of decentralization.
Stipulated Mike.
Now move on to addressing the reality that for all intents and purposes, which is what matters for these censorship issues, it is centralized.
arewedecentralizedyet.online/
Are We Decentralized Yet?
arewedecentralizedyet.onlineMastodon Migration reshared this.
Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •Well, I don't see it as nitpicking...
Nobody was questioning the architecture of #twitter either as long as everybody was happy with their governance... We should do better this time.
Mike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Mastodon Migration
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@folkerschamel
Using caps and issuing admonishments does not make your argument stronger.
What he said is true. It may be a bad law, but the for all intents and purposes centralized Bluesky network is more vulnerable to it.
Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron
Yes, but my point is that the consequences for the users are much worse for #bluesky users because of lack of decentralization mastodon.social/@folkerschamel…
A bad law does not eliminate the difference between effectively centralized and decentralized social networks.
Folker (@folkerschamel@mastodon.social)
MastodonAaron Mills 🏳️⚧️
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Aaron Mills 🏳️⚧️ • • •Theoretically yes, but in practice basically all #atproto users depend on #bluesky and are affected by the block without having the technical expertise or willingness to circumvent it. On the other hand #fediverse users are distributed over many #mastodon instances making their own decisions.
#activitypub and #atproto both support decentralization, but in practice #mastodon is decentralized, #bluesky is centralized.
Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron @bsky.app
I think @Gargron is right.
I think it is an insincere excuse to imply that most users can host their own views or use such other views.
And I think it is a straw man to imply that many instances potentially making similar decisions is remotely the same as one company making a central decision and forcing it on everyone.
Mike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron @bsky.app
I'm not implying that.
My point is: Decentralzation gives real choices to all the instances. For example, some instance can decide to do the same as Blueskye and cut off Mississippi, others could also decide for individual age verification - not to say that I suggest that, but they have that option.
Central decisions don't allow that. In practice every user of bluesky is forced to accept the central decision of bluesky.
Folker
in reply to Folker • • •Mike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron @bsky.app
I think I gave a very specific argument why it is not meaningless.
I would respect an argument along the line "well, I know that the #atproto fediverse / mastodon is much better regarding #decentralization than #bluesky, but overall #bluesky is still much better because of x y z", but I smells disingenuous to me to claim that #bluesky is as decentralized as #mastodon.
Mike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron @bsky.app
Social media means that the topic of an thread can expand 😉 - in this case which architecture is fundamentally better. I don't see it as a ideological discussion, but having large real-world consequences. As we can experience live right now with the Mississippi situation. I can definitely tell you that there won't be a central decision for all #fediverse instances to block all Mississippi users.🙂
Mike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron @bsky.app
I think it's claim that the current consequences for #bluesky users and #mastodon users are the same is denying reality. But I believe this discussion landed in a non-constructive dead end.
To switch topic to an exciting aspect: I'm excited that bidgy works much better than I expected. It's still a long way, but it gives me hope that one day we will truly break down the walls between all platform and protocol silos.
Mike Masnick
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Mike Masnick • • •@Gargron @bsky.app That's not my argument, see mastodon.social/@folkerschamel….
Folker
2025-08-23 22:14:49
Mastodon Migration
in reply to Folker • • •Folker
in reply to Mastodon Migration • • •Ben Mayne
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •schratze
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •patricus
in reply to Eugen Rochko • • •I would rather go to a censored platform than one that stil has a lot of accessibility bugs.
Bluesky
in reply to Bluesky • • •With legal challenges to this law pending, we cannot justify building the expensive required infrastructure. For now, we have made the difficult decision to block access in Mississippi. To learn more, read our blog post:
Our Response to Mississippi’s ...
Our Response to Mississippi’s Age Assurance Law - Bluesky
BlueskyBen Royce 🇺🇦
Unknown parent • • •